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Re: does God punish? [Re: Rosangela] #154039
07/09/13 10:59 PM
07/09/13 10:59 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Jesus did not die in a fire.

Ellen White may be referring to this when she said:

[He was] the only One who could bear the strokes in behalf of the sinner and because of His innocence not be consumed. {HP 42.4}
Greens paragraph which you quoted in part was this:
Originally Posted By: green
Jesus did not die in a fire. The wicked at the end of time will not die on crosses. This is why I still stand by my statement.
Christ did not die because of the cross. He died on a cross, but not because of it. He died because of sin. When they pierced His side, he was already dead. The wicked in the end, die of sin that they cling to. God's presence to them, is a consuming fire, Hebrews 12:29. The fire is God's presence. Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the middle of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: APL] #154040
07/10/13 01:36 AM
07/10/13 01:36 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Christ died because of sin; the wicked will die because of sin. Christ was not consumed, but the wicked will be consumed. There is a difference between what happened to Christ and what will happen to the wicked. What is the difference?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Rosangela] #154045
07/10/13 06:24 AM
07/10/13 06:24 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Christ died because of sin; the wicked will die because of sin. Christ was not consumed, but the wicked will be consumed. There is a difference between what happened to Christ and what will happen to the wicked. What is the difference?
Define consumed.

Leviticus 10:2-5 So fire went out from before Yahweh, and it consumed them so that they died before Yahweh. 3 Therefore Moses said to Aaron, “This is what Yahweh spoke, saying, ‘Among those who are close to me I will show myself holy, and in the presence of all the people I will display my glory.’ ” So Aaron was silent.
4 ¶ Then Moses summoned Mishael and Elzaphan the sons of Uzziel, Aaron’s uncle, and he said to them, “Come forward. Carry your brothers from the front of the sanctuary to outside the camp.” 5 So they came forward, and they carried them outside the camp in their tunics, just as Moses had ordered.

Is it not interesting that Nadab and Abihu were "consumed". Yet their cousins carried them outside the camps by their tunics? Their intact tunics!

Christ dies the death of a sinner, in similar fashion of a sinner. The interesting question to ask, is if He died the second death, why is He now alive?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: APL] #154056
07/10/13 03:00 PM
07/10/13 03:00 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Quote:
Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. (RSV)
18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought forth fire from the midst of you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. (RSV)
Notice He doesn't send a fire upon satan, but it comes from the midst of satan.

Re: does God punish? [Re: APL] #154063
07/10/13 06:35 PM
07/10/13 06:35 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Christ died because of sin; the wicked will die because of sin. Christ was not consumed, but the wicked will be consumed. There is a difference between what happened to Christ and what will happen to the wicked. What is the difference?
Define consumed.

Leviticus 10:2-5 So fire went out from before Yahweh, and it consumed them so that they died before Yahweh. 3 Therefore Moses said to Aaron, “This is what Yahweh spoke, saying, ‘Among those who are close to me I will show myself holy, and in the presence of all the people I will display my glory.’ ” So Aaron was silent.
4 ¶ Then Moses summoned Mishael and Elzaphan the sons of Uzziel, Aaron’s uncle, and he said to them, “Come forward. Carry your brothers from the front of the sanctuary to outside the camp.” 5 So they came forward, and they carried them outside the camp in their tunics, just as Moses had ordered.

Is it not interesting that Nadab and Abihu were "consumed". Yet their cousins carried them outside the camps by their tunics? Their intact tunics!

Christ dies the death of a sinner, in similar fashion of a sinner. The interesting question to ask, is if He died the second death, why is He now alive?

It seems "consume" refers to physical destruction by the glory of God, generally described as happening by fire.
It must mean more than dying, for Christ died but was not consumed. And Christ died under the wrath of God, just like the wicked will die.
To be sure I believe there is a spiritual fire which will play a part in the death of the wicked, but it seems a physical fire will also play a part in it. At least this is what some EGW quotes seem to imply.

About Nadab and Abihu:

A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of his express directions. {2Red 82.2}

About the wicked:

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. ... The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed. {EW 54.1}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. {EW 295.1}

Re: does God punish? [Re: kland] #154064
07/10/13 06:39 PM
07/10/13 06:39 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Notice He doesn't send a fire upon satan, but it comes from the midst of satan

Maybe the light of the glory of God causes a physical reaction in what is contaminated by sin.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Rosangela] #154067
07/10/13 09:23 PM
07/10/13 09:23 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: rosangela
About Nadab and Abihu:

A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of his express directions. {2Red 82.2}
Yes, but then their cousins carried Nadab and Abihu by their tunic outside the came. The tunics were not "consumed". And they were still in them so they could be carried. Do you not find that interesting?
Originally Posted By: rosangela
It seems "consume" refers to physical destruction by the glory of God ... It must mean more than dying
You are hedging here.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: APL] #154068
07/11/13 01:19 AM
07/11/13 01:19 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
What I mean is that "consume" implies a particular type of death. Christ died, but was not consumed.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Rosangela] #154074
07/11/13 05:05 AM
07/11/13 05:05 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
What I mean is that "consume" implies a particular type of death. Christ died, but was not consumed.
Please explain!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: does God punish? [Re: Rosangela] #154086
07/11/13 08:24 PM
07/11/13 08:24 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. {EW 295.1}
Yes, seems like there's something in the Bible about the end time when the tares are gathered and burned? Maybe you could find that for discussion?

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