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Re: Westcott and Hort and their purpose. [Re: APL] #154649
08/05/13 03:23 AM
08/05/13 03:23 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
I think Rick has been very specific, but it's so hard to read and understand many of his posts that it isn't clear. Referring to the last several posts -- ll those numbers and # signs really don't mean anything to me. I take it they are the numbers of words in Strong's concordance, but who has the time and commitment to look up all those thousands of numbers?

I wonder if Rick himself has looked them all up or if he is just cut and pasting from some source?


I guess I'm admitting this is getting to be way above my head, and probably many other heads as well.


NO - those numbers are not Strong's numbers. They are Unicode code points for non-ASCII (think mainly English) characters. That is Greek. The forum editor shows them correctly, but the forum software trashes them when they are displayed.

I apologize for only now catching this. I have enabled HTML in several of those posts now, so take a look at the Greek alterations that Rick was posting about again, and you should now be able to see it better.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Westcott and Hort and their purpose. [Re: Johann] #160876
01/27/14 11:22 AM
01/27/14 11:22 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,114
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
You cannot prove or disprove anything with Strong unless you know the languages involved and how the grammar works. Anything else is just child's play that means nothing.

When I worked in Nigeria as a Bible teacher and pastor of the Ile-Ife SDA Mission Hospital a representative from the Bible Society brought me a whole box full of TEV New Testaments straight from the press. Students, staff and church members, who had been using the KJV, were delighted to read the Gospels of Jesus and the Apostles in clear English, and there never was a question about any of our doctrines.

In two other countries where I have worked as a minister in the SDA church for decades, we have never had a KJV Bible, and there has never been a conflict in doctrines with our world church.

It must be Satan himself who is stirring up this unreasonable distrust in Scripture just before the return of Jesus.
Just need to put a few changes in the recipe and cover it with honey and people will taste the honey and miss the poison it hides.

Re: Westcott and Hort and their purpose. [Re: Rick H] #160877
01/27/14 12:31 PM
01/27/14 12:31 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I've taken a brief look at the list of "changes," and many of them consist in the omission of unimportant pronouns or of the conjunction kai ("and"). In others, like in John 5:16, "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day," the omitted part is "and sought to slay him." It's interesting that the phrase was omitted in v. 16, but left in v. 18. So those who wished to make the "changes" did a very poor job.

Re: Westcott and Hort and their purpose. [Re: Rosangela] #160978
01/29/14 03:33 AM
01/29/14 03:33 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,431
Canada
Let's do a comparison study that makes a BIG DIFFERENCE in our doctrinal understanding of the Sabbath being the Sabbath of Gentiles as well as the Jews.


Quote:
KJV
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.



NIV
Quote:
42. As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.
43. When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
45. When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.
46. Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.


Now let's list the outright differences

KJV.................................NIV....................................R.T GREEK................V.GREEK
42. The Jews...............Paul and Silas................... Ioudaios(Jew)............autos(they/he)
42. The Gentiles...........the people...................... ethnos(Gentiles)........ ( -x-x- omitted)
42. These words...........further ...........................tauta rhema...............houtos rhema

The rest has only minor changes, but it is verse 42 that completely changes the meaning of the story.
The KJV (based on the RT) gives the following picture:

We realize Paul and Silas were preaching to the Jews and Gentile proselytes in their synagogue on Sabbath. Then the Jews go out, and the Gentiles come up to Paul and beg him to come preach the SAME words to them (to the Gentiles) the NEXT SABBATH.

A week goes by and Paul honors there request by NOT going into a synagogue but going where the Gentiles have gathered and preaches to them – the whole city practically coming to listen.
In this picture it becomes clear that Paul doesn’t say to the Gentiles – hey, tomorrow is the Gentile’s day to celebrate the resurrection, we’ll honor the Gentile Sabbath tomorrow, Paul is holding the Gentiles to the same Sabbath. For the NEXT SABBATH he speaks to the Gentiles. The Jews are jealous.....

In the NIV this emphases on the Sabbath for the Gentiles is lost.

In the NIV the picture is as follows:
Paul and Silas were preaching to the Jews and Gentile proselytes, Paul and Silas leave the synagogue the people invite him to come back next Sabbath and speak further to them. Apparently a huge crowd gathered at the synagogue the next Sabbath and Jews were jealous....

But you see in this version Paul is still catering to the Jews and meeting with them in their synagogue to which many from the city had gathered. It isn’t till verse 46 that Paul himself goes to the Gentiles and the impact of the Sabbath for the Gentiles has been wiped out from scripture.

Re: Westcott and Hort and their purpose. [Re: dedication] #160985
01/29/14 04:49 AM
01/29/14 04:49 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
There's no question that many of the changes made in the NIV are frivolous and insignificant. But, as Dedication has so well pointed out, there are also changes which are hugely significant. Those changes are rarely for the better.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Westcott and Hort and their purpose. [Re: Rick H] #197170
12/19/23 05:53 PM
12/19/23 05:53 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Rick H., this is a very thorough and thus a very good study.

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