Honesty does not require discontinuance

APL has through this whole discussion emphasized a heavenly dimension of God and His Son Jesus Christ incomprehensible by the unconverted eye.

No wonder the discussion and confusion continues.

Please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.

PS - You wrote, "Never said Moses had unbelief." Why, then, did Jesus command Moses to kill? 1) "Yet divine strength is to be combined with human effort. Moses did not believe that God would overcome their foes while Israel remained inactive." 2) The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."

"The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." (GC 36)

Please explain how GC 36 addresses the distinct differences between Jesus' experience (beginning in Gethsemane and ending on Golgotha) and the experience of the resurrected unsaved in the Lake of Fire (see GC 672, 673). I ask because you cited Jesus' experience and suggested it reflects how Jesus will punish the resurrected unsaved in the Lake of Fire.

When God asked Abraham to offer up Isaac, who would have been the one to cut Isaac's throat? Abraham was the one who would have killed Isaac. By the Father "offering" His only begotten Son, He totally takes resposibillity for the death of His Son.

Also, You make it sound as if second death is just being cut off from God. Is Satan cut off from God now? Is he currently suffering second death? Satan hates the Father, and since he was cast out of heaven he has been completely cut off from the Father without a shred of hope for reconcilliation, is he suffering second death because of this? No way! The wicked do not care that they are cut off from God until the truth is revealed.

It does not hurt the wicked to be cut off until they realize they are going to die eternally. That is when they start to sweat blood.

You have asked "what is second death"? I will ask this. Are the wicked suffering second death at the second resurrection? They are emboldened to form ranks to try to overthrow the city gates and kill God so they can eat the tree of life. Are they suffering the second death while cut off from the Father durring that attempt? The Holy Spirit is not with them, and the Father and Jesus are definetely not behind their attempt, so where is their suffering from being "cut off"?

It's not until God reveals the truth to every heart that they confess and turn on Satan. They don't care that God is not in their heart, they could care less. They only begin to suffer the second death when they realize they cannot reach the tree of life eternally. That is how the wicked will suffer second death.

Jesus suffered second death while carrying the sins of the world, and it effected Him because He is devoted to His Father, it hurt Him to be cut off. It does not effect the wicked that they are cut off until they realize that it means they will be destroyed, then it matters to their selfishness.

Jesus was willing to be cut off from His Father for us, the wicked are shown they do not care about God and they are only concerned about themselves. There is a division here.

I believe the seocnd death experience that Jesus had was witnessing the actual future event. Jesus walked in our shoes at the moment we would have seen the wrath of God outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. Jesus literally experienced what the wicked will experience when they realize they are lost. He experienced the curse for us. That is how He suffered the second death for us. When He saw the wicked outside the New Jerusalem covered in blood it was the most painful thing He could ever witness, and to do so as if He was receiving the pain of the sins we committed for all of us at the same time.

This is a very good thing to study.



This is the death that Jesus suffered before He died physically.

The penalty that Jesus suffered for us was two fold.

"Angels beheld the Saviour’s agony. They saw their Lord enclosed by legions of satanic forces, His nature weighed down with a shuddering, mysterious dread. There was silence in heaven. No harp was touched. Could mortals have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {CSA 33.7}
The worlds unfallen and the heavenly angels had watched with intense interest as the conflict drew to its close.... {CSA 33.8}
Christ’s agony did not cease, but His depression and discouragement left Him. The storm had in nowise abated, but He who was its object was strengthened to meet its fury. He came forth calm and serene. A heavenly peace rested upon His bloodstained face. He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the sufferings of death for every man.... {CSA 33.9}

So in this text it says Jesus had suffered death for every man in Gethsemane before He physically died on the cross.

He suffered the literal penalty that each man would have had to receive. He suffered the curse. THEN He died on the cross.

APL, how did Uzzah die? Did God just cut off His presence from him?

James - Gethsemane and the cross are linked. Christ was suffering the separation in Gethsemane, but who was watching? No human one on earth! Christ did not die in Gethsemane. He remained very much alive. The final separation occurred on the cross.

NOTE in {DA 694} (don't know why you don't quote the original source but prefer an abreviated work) it says, "Christ's agony did not cease, but His depression left Him". And then, The conflict is ended, Jesus consents to honor His Father by doing His will and bearing His curse, the consequence of man’s transgression. He was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. {6MR 336.3}

Jsot asks, Is Satan cut off from God now? No. If Satan were completely cut off, He would die. This in integral the the issues in the great controversy. Read Patriarchs and Prophets, chapter 1 - why was sin permitted. Only one person in the entire universe has experienced that. Christ. God's strange act is when He allows sinners to have their choice.

Uzzah died of presumption. God did not prevent the death that Uzzah's transgression brought.

APL,

1. How does Jesus prevent sin from killing us every time we sin?
2. Is He preventing the first death or the second death?
3. Is Jesus preventing sin from killing evil angels?
4. How does sin kill sinners?
5. If sin kills sinners, why will Jesus employ fire to punish sinners in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness?
6. If sin kills sinners, why would eating from the tree of life enable them to live forever?