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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: APL]
#154820
08/10/13 06:22 AM
08/10/13 06:22 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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Paul said that the wages of sin is death. So if Eve had sinned, then she should have died.
Yet, Paul seems to have also said that death started with Adam. So until Adam sinned, there was no death.
That's both from Scripture. But it's not quite as obvious as a billboard. This will need some digging.
C'mon APL, step your game up. You didn't think there would be a question if it was obvious, did you? HELLO ASYGO - - The ANSWER IS OBVIOUS. It is very clear. And what Paul was talking about was the whole human race. You're right. It is obvious. I see it clearly now. You've been very helpful. Thanks.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: asygo]
#154824
08/10/13 07:08 AM
08/10/13 07:08 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Romans 5:12 does not speak of the man Adam. It speaks of "anthropos," meaning "human." Certainly, Eve was human. So it could easily be understood here that Paul refers specifically to Eve, as she was the first sinner among humans, and Paul has used the word in singular form, coupled explicitly with the word "one," i.e. "one human." Yes, verse 12 speaks of one generic person. However, verse 14 specifies Adam as the starting point of death. It seems that either Eve's sin did not earn death, or Adam is the representative for Eve. Yes, Arnold, Adam represents Eve. Genesis 5:1-2 tells us the following truth: This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. When people automatically equate "Adam" to only the male half of the human species which God created and named Adam, they ignore the more beautiful half.  Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: kland]
#154825
08/10/13 07:12 AM
08/10/13 07:12 AM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 7,003
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It seems several of us got the idea you were saying Eve was not going to be in heaven.
But if you are going to speculate on what's that which is not written, then you should also consider other ones not specifically mentioned. Have you looked for Able, Seth, Noah, etc. being specifically mentioned?
kland, I think you are missing the point. You seem so intent on finding wherewith to accuse me that you have lost sight of common decency in assuming the best of intentions in someone until proven otherwise. I am not resonating on the frequency of this post of yours. To help you understand the difference between your question and mine, let us suppose the following scenario: Suppose that Mrs. White specifically mentions Noah's wife being in heaven and looking at the history of the Flood from the heavenly vantage point--but no mention is made of Noah in her account of the vision. Would you wonder if Noah would be there? I would. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: APL]
#154826
08/10/13 07:22 AM
08/10/13 07:22 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Eve did not bring death on all humans, Adam did. Adam could have stopped it. He did not. Eve was deceived, Adam was not. The "one human", was Adam. Maybe you're right. Maybe Eve wasn't exactly "human." She wasn't important. Or she just wasn't worth saving. Jesus wouldn't have had to die for her, since she would have just died by herself if Adam had not joined her and she would have been replaced with a lovelier creature--who was perfect again. Is this really what you would like people to believe? I'm glad I believe in a different God than that. I believe in a God with such love for us that He would have died for Eve too, not just for her husband. God would have died for just "one," and Eve was "one." She was not less than human. She was the "one" that introduced all of mankind to sin. In the parable the shepherd goes out to search for one sheep--the very least that can be numbered. So if there had been but one lost soul, Christ would have died for that one. {COL 187.2} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: James Peterson]
#154827
08/10/13 07:24 AM
08/10/13 07:24 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2021
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Posts: 7,003
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If Adam did not sin, would Eve had died anyway? Yes, but given an infinite number of iterations of the scenario, Adam would have chosen Eve every time. Adam LOVED Eve; just as God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son: over an infinite number of iterations? EVERY TIME! Well spoken, James. I appreciated that thought. Mrs. White agrees with the principle of it as well. Adam, through his love for Eve, disobeyed the command of God, and fell with her. {EW 148.1} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154832
08/10/13 01:30 PM
08/10/13 01:30 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Maybe you're right. Maybe Eve wasn't exactly "human." She wasn't important. Or she just wasn't worth saving. Jesus wouldn't have had to die for her, since she would have just died by herself if Adam had not joined her and she would have been replaced with a lovelier creature--who was perfect again.
Is this really what you would like people to believe?
I'm glad I believe in a different God than that. I believe in a God with such love for us that He would have died for Eve too, not just for her husband. God would have died for just "one," and Eve was "one." She was not less than human. She was the "one" that introduced all of mankind to sin. You make an interesting jump. Were we not discussing what make all the human race sinners? You are claiming it was Eve, but Adam could have stopped it. It was Adam's sin that brought down the entire human race. Then you make the leap that Eve was not human, is that your view of women? What is the wages of sin? That is the answer to your question on the fate of Eve. And the plan of salvation would have been implemented for one human, even Eve. But the whole human race would not have fallen, and THAT is the point. To quote EGW "In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race." {GC 544.2}.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: APL]
#154847
08/11/13 08:50 AM
08/11/13 08:50 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL,
"Adam" means both Eve and her husband. She sinned, and brought sin into the human race.
Actually, this thread might be more easily resolved if "Adam" were not so singularly "singular" in Mrs. White's account of his reunion with Christ in Heaven. There seems to be no mention of his other half at that point. This was what caused my wonderment at the beginning, and prompted me to start this discussion. The discussion really has nothing to do with who sinned first or how, or what it meant for the human race afterward--somehow that is apparently important to those who surmise I have an "agenda." The problem is, this sidetrack was not on my mind at all when I began this topic. So, who has the agenda?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154851
08/11/13 03:22 PM
08/11/13 03:22 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL,
"Adam" means both Eve and her husband. She sinned, and brought sin into the human race.
Actually, this thread might be more easily resolved if "Adam" were not so singularly "singular" in Mrs. White's account of his reunion with Christ in Heaven. There seems to be no mention of his other half at that point. This was what caused my wonderment at the beginning, and prompted me to start this discussion. The discussion really has nothing to do with who sinned first or how, or what it meant for the human race afterward--somehow that is apparently important to those who surmise I have an "agenda." The problem is, this sidetrack was not on my mind at all when I began this topic. So, who has the agenda?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. It is your agenda. The fact has been pointed out that it really was Adam's sin that plunged the human race into this mess. You think EGW was speaking of Adam and Eve in her quote. I don't. And there are many more like that. It was you that tried to show that because Eve was the first to sin, that it was she that was responsible. EGW says the Eve was spared total ruin. That should be enough evidence.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154940
08/13/13 03:44 AM
08/13/13 03:44 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,433
Canada
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Yes, but given an infinite number of iterations of the scenario, Adam would have chosen Eve every time. Adam LOVED Eve; just as God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son: over an infinite number of iterations? EVERY TIME!
Well spoken, James. I appreciated that thought. Mrs. White agrees with the principle of it as well. Adam, through his love for Eve, disobeyed the command of God, and fell with her. {EW 148.1} Blessings, Green Cochoa. Matt. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Adam's choice should not be upheld as the noble choice. He should have trusted in God to provide for His future, and He should have entrusted Eve to God as well. The acknowledgment that Eve alone would have died had Adam chosen to trust God, does not mean a plan of redemption would not be offered to her (it quite possibly would have) what it does mean is that death would NOT have gained dominion over the whole human race.
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Re: Will Eve be in Heaven?
[Re: dedication]
#154962
08/13/13 03:06 PM
08/13/13 03:06 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Yes, can you imagine what might have happened if Adam instead of coming up with his own solution had said to Eve: We have a problem. Let's go to God and see if there's a solution? He could have always eaten the fruit later, if he didn't like God's solution.
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