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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #155210
08/19/13 03:23 PM
08/19/13 03:23 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
I will sooner reject my ideas than God's word.

Originally Posted By: kland
Regarding Saul, if you don't know how he died, wouldn't you want to know how God "slew" Saul, so you know what to fear if God is "gonna get you"? Was it lighting strikes zapping him from the sky?

1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?
What I couldn't find is there is where it says God slew Saul.

Quote:

What else would you like me to find for you?

Do you think that your "more complex than God's plain words" ideas will get any traction if you don't even know the plain words?
What I'd like you to find are the plain words in 1 Chronicles 10 and answer the question, Did God slay Saul or did Saul kill himself?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #155240
08/20/13 10:07 PM
08/20/13 10:07 PM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
What I'd like you to find are the plain words in 1 Chronicles 10 and answer the question, Did God slay Saul or did Saul kill himself?

At your service.

1 Chronicles 10
4 Then Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised men come and abuse me.” But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. 5 And when his armorbearer saw that Saul was dead, he also fell on his sword and died.

13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. 14 But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.


There is only one verse in the chapter that says somebody killed Saul: But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

So the plain words say that Saul fell on his sword and was soon found dead, but it was God who killed him.

Do you not agree with this passage of Scripture?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #155260
08/21/13 02:01 PM
08/21/13 02:01 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
So the plain words say that Saul fell on his sword and was soon found dead,

but it was God who killed him.

Do you not agree with this passage of Scripture?

Yes.

But yes to what? Did Saul commit suicide or did God kill him?

If it's "plain" why does it raise questions?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #155334
08/23/13 12:21 AM
08/23/13 12:21 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: asygo
So the plain words say that Saul fell on his sword and was soon found dead,

but it was God who killed him.

Do you not agree with this passage of Scripture?

Yes.

But yes to what? Did Saul commit suicide or did God kill him?

If it's "plain" why does it raise questions?

The existence of questions does not imply the lack of answers. People ask the silliest questions. Just look at Balaam.

Did Saul commit suicide or did God kill him? What do the verses say? Who killed Saul?

"But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse."

Who is "He" and who is "him"? Basic grammar shows clearly that He=God and him=Saul.

Just because people ask questions doesn't mean God hasn't answered already. It could be that people just can't accept God's answers, and take themselves deeper into darkness. Just look at Balaam.

Do you disagree with my analysis of "He killed him"?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #155366
08/23/13 07:18 PM
08/23/13 07:18 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Who is "He" and who is "him"? Basic grammar shows clearly that He=God and him=Saul.
...
Do you disagree with my analysis of "He killed him"?

I disagree with you contradicting yourself:
Originally Posted By: asygo
1 Samuel 31:4
Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it.


kland, did you know that?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #155371
08/23/13 09:30 PM
08/23/13 09:30 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
C'mon kland. The ruse has been exposed.

Saul fell on his sword, but God killed him. The Bible is clear. Will you accept it or try to misdirect?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #155373
08/23/13 10:58 PM
08/23/13 10:58 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
C'mon kland. The ruse has been exposed.

Saul fell on his sword, but God killed him. The Bible is clear. Will you accept it or try to misdirect?
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

OK - which is it? Did God do this or Satan?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #155375
08/24/13 12:38 AM
08/24/13 12:38 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
C'mon kland. The ruse has been exposed.

Saul fell on his sword, but God killed him. The Bible is clear. Will you accept it or try to misdirect?
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

OK - which is it? Did God do this or Satan?

Again, it is both. Satan tempted, and God allowed David to fall prey to the temptation. God never tempts, so that part was Satan's. But God took advantage of the opportunity to dish out some evidently much-needed punishment.

God bless,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155376
08/24/13 12:44 AM
08/24/13 12:44 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
kland,

I agree with Arnold. If the Bible says God killed Saul, why do you dare to differ with that fact? Is there a theological reason--a long-cherished opinion that God cannot or will not do what He Himself says He will do? Do you want so much to disagree with God that you find contradictory things in His own Word, and wrest it? Think about this, please. I speak as a brother in Christ.

As for me, I will accept God's Word whether I understand it always or not. I may not have eloquence to explain to other minds what I barely comprehend myself. For that, I apologize. I may not always have the "ready answer" that Scripture tells me I should. Again, for this I apologize. I wish I had the wisdom of Solomon, the diplomacy of Elisha, and the love of Jesus all combined to be able to answer each doubting question I might find. But, alas, I am but a pilgrim on a similar journey, with difficulty enough in finding my own way sometimes.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #155381
08/24/13 02:46 AM
08/24/13 02:46 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
C'mon kland. The ruse has been exposed.

Saul fell on his sword, but God killed him. The Bible is clear. Will you accept it or try to misdirect?
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

OK - which is it? Did God do this or Satan?

Again, it is both. Satan tempted, and God allowed David to fall prey to the temptation.

And the underlying question is this: Which parts of God's word can we reject?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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