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Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Green Cochoa] #155763
09/04/13 11:15 AM
09/04/13 11:15 AM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Gregory
Share with us your personal knowledge of the expertese that Dr. Wilkinson has of the MSS And the development of the text.

I never met the man, so I have no personal knowledge. Do you have such knowledge? If so, please share.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Gregory has stated the fact, which I have verified to my own satisfaction, that the flaws in Dr. Wilkinson's work have been widely published and are easily available. Therefore there is no reason to repeat them here.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Johann] #155764
09/04/13 11:32 AM
09/04/13 11:32 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
The online EGWhite index lists 489 times where Ellen White quotes the RV.
That is why the title of the thread is "Why the King James Version is Superior...", not "You are going to hell if you use the RV or NIV". We have to look and see what text is the most correct and true. Even Ellen White quoted the Apocrypha, so should we add it to our Bibles, of course not. With the facts we have before us today, we must decide what is best, and I think that is not too hard to discern.

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Green Cochoa] #155766
09/04/13 12:59 PM
09/04/13 12:59 PM
G
Gregory  Offline
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Quote:
I never met the man, so I have no personal knowledge. Do you have such knowledge? If so, please share.


My question was serious. You have traveled and lived in parts of the world where I have not traveled and lived. You have experienced SDA leaders whom I have not personally experienced. I asked you to share and was honest.

The major thrust of my question, if you will read my entire post and not just the part that you have quoted, was: How have you determined that Dr. W. is better qualiafied than any modern SDA Scholar. As that was the thrust of my question I was not focused on any personal interaction that you might have had with Dr. W. I was more focused on your knowledge of and interactions with modern SDA Scholars.

There was no need for me to focus on Dr. W. As I have said, his book has been soundly criticized. I see no need to simply repeat what others have said and do not believe that I have anything more to contribute. It has already been said.

I say again: By what standard do you say that Dr. W. is better qualified than any modern SDA scholar. That is a very broad statement that can only validly be made by someone who has either personally interacted with all modern SDA scholars, or has read so widely in thier published works that one would be informed enough to make such a statement. You made the statement, support it.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Rick H] #155767
09/04/13 01:00 PM
09/04/13 01:00 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: Johann
The online EGWhite index lists 489 times where Ellen White quotes the RV.
That is why the title of the thread is "Why the King James Version is Superior...", not "You are going to hell if you use the RV or NIV". We have to look and see what text is the most correct and true. Even Ellen White quoted the Apocrypha, so should we add it to our Bibles, of course not. With the facts we have before us today, we must decide what is best, and I think that is not too hard to discern.


Then why would Ellen use the RV at all if the KJV is so much superior?

In which way is it superior?

Have you been able to verify that the antique vocabulary of the KJV gets better through with the Gospel of Jesus Christ to people today than the NIV?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Gregory] #155768
09/04/13 01:03 PM
09/04/13 01:03 PM
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Gregory  Offline
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NOTE: I personally know and/or have taken classwork from a number of modern SDA scholars. I see no reason to give their names as I have not made any broad statement about any of them.

IOW, if I were to say that Dr. X is better informed than Dr. W. on this subject, I could validly be asked to support that. I have not made such a statement.

I have only asked you to support you statement that Dr. W. is a better scholar than any modern SDA scholar. My question is a valid one.

Last edited by Gregory; 09/04/13 01:04 PM.

Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Johann] #155773
09/04/13 01:49 PM
09/04/13 01:49 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: APL
Matthew 5:22 KJV But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:22 RV but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

Guess which one EGW quoted in the book, Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing?


Why would Ellen White prefer the wording of the RV here - a rendering which eliminated the words "without a cause" in this particular verse?

How could Ellen White get away with that if this is not permissible today?
I didn't see the difference until you pointed it out. They said the same things to me.

"Who is vainly incensed". The "without cause" "was probably a marginal gloss originally, which in process of time crept into the text."

And can anyone give an instance when someone is angry at someone without a reason? So, someone who insists the "without cause" must be in the text to be valid, is really saying they feel justified for being angry and see no need for repentance. Just as the scribes and Pharisees felt.

Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Johann] #155777
09/04/13 04:03 PM
09/04/13 04:03 PM
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Gregory  Offline
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http://text.egwwritings.org/publication....mp;pagenumber=1


The above is one of the more sober and reasonsed critiques of Dr W's book.

It clearly shouuld be considered by anyone who suggests that his book is quality.

Here is a quote from pages 3 & 4 of the above critique:

Quote:
In instance after instance throughout the book the author violates the primal laws of evidence by taking statements out of their setting, and by the introduction of testimony of an extraneous nature, as will be seen hereafter. There are many half-truths stated, and unwarranted impressions are thus left in the mind of the uninformed reader. These charges will be abundantly proven in the pages which follow. The removal and use of a brief statement from it is context may conveniently serve a purpose, but it is an unsound and unscholarly procedure,—unless there be scrupulous and unbiased care exercised to see that it never violates the intent of the writer and the context of the excerpt.


That is exactly what I have seen done here: Statements taken out of context and half truths.

Last edited by Gregory; 09/04/13 04:11 PM.

Gregory
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Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Gregory] #155778
09/04/13 04:32 PM
09/04/13 04:32 PM
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Gregory  Offline
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http://www.kjv-only.com/doug/kjvoroots.html

The above website approaches Dr. W's book from a slightly differenc perspective.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Gregory] #155779
09/04/13 04:47 PM
09/04/13 04:47 PM
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Gregory  Offline
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The following provides some interesting information about Dr. W's book:

Quote:
B. G. Wilkinson's Our Authorized Bible Vindicated
A Critique by Alden Thompson
March 24, 1995


The author and the times

The Seventh-day Adventist Encyclopedia describes Benjamin G. Wilkinson (1872-1968) as "dean, administrator, evangelist, and author," a man who gave 56 years of active service to his church. Born in Canada, he served in a number of positions of leadership: dean of theology at three Adventist Colleges: Battle Creek College in Michigan, Union College in Nebraska, and Washington Missionary College (Columbia Union) in Washington D.C.; leader of the work in Canada and in Haiti; for four years president of the Latin Conference (Southern European Division), starting work in Rome, Paris, and in Spain; president of local conferences in Kansas and Pennsylvania, and for ten years, president of the Columbia Union (1909-1918). His 24 years of continuous service at Washington Missionary College included 10 years as president (1936-1946).

Wilkinson was one of only a few Adventists of his era to have earned a PhD (George Washington University, 1908). But his two major books, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated (1930) and Truth Triumphant: The Church in the Wilderness (1944) , are both marked by an evangelistic fervor that transcends mere academic interest. Indeed, a few lines in the "Foreword" reveal that urgency took precedence over precision. Producing the book under "great pressure" while continuing as theology professor and pastor of a city church, Wilkinson states that he wrote "in response to urgent requests." And then the tell-tale admission: "It may be possible that there are a few technical mistakes." But he goes on to say that he has "strong confidence" that "the main lines of argument are timely, and that they stand on a firm foundation."

As discussed below, Wilkinson had good reason to fear the presence of "technical mistakes." But this review moves beyond the mere technical and suggests that there are weighty reasons for questioning his "firm foundation" as well.

His book is dominated by a vigorous two-pronged attack against Catholicism and "modernism." Ironically, writing at a time when official Catholicism was as strident in its opposition to modernism as Wilkinson himself, he portrays Catholics as a major force in the modernist plot. In Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, he argues that the cornerstone of that plot is the attempt to replace the King James Version with revised versions of Scripture.

Wilkinson's anti-Catholicism is rooted in his Adventist heritage. Envisioning a Catholic-Protestant coalition that would enforce Sunday-keeping on pain of death, Adventists had watched with high interest as the United States Congress debated Sunday law bills in 1888 and 1889. Senator Blair, author of the 1888 bill, declared before Congress that "only a homogeneous people can be great. No nation can exist with more than one religion."

And the problem went beyond rhetoric: between 1885 and 1896, American Adventists spent a total of 1438 days in jail and 455 days on chain gangs for working on Sunday. Ellen White's The Great Controversy no doubt fueled the sense of alarm with its vivid portrayal of the aims of the papacy. The 1888 revision, for example, quotes Pope Pius IX as saying in 1854 that liberty of conscience was a "most pestilential error."

Given the threat to Adventism from the prevailing culture, Wilkinson had good reasons for his keen interest in the "wilderness" church, an interest evident in both his books. Furthermore, when he enrolled in Battle Creek College in 1891, he was in a position to be influenced by W. W. Prescott, President of Battle Creek College, and A. T. Jones, a leading religious liberty spokesperson, both powerful rhetoricians and outspoken critics of Catholicism.

By the time Wilkinson published Our Authorized Bible Vindicated in 1930, another significant factor had a bearing on his work: Fundamentalism was leaving its mark on American culture and on Adventism. The appearance of the Revised Version in Britain (1881-1885) and the American Standard Version (1901), though both cautious revisions of the 1611 King James Version, had contributed to the turmoil. Those believers who wanted no changes at all in their Bible blamed the revisions on the "modernists." And for Wilkinson, the Catholics were among the chief culprits.

According to H. H. Meyers, one of Wilkinson's modern admirers (1993), the mainstream Adventist community in the 1920s endorsed the new versions. Meyers cites a booklet entitled "Doctrines for use in Seventh-day Adventist Colleges," published in 1926 by the Berrien Springs College Press, which says that the American Revised Version is "more accurate, more scholarly, more valuable" than the King James Version.

Wilkinson, however, was of quite a different opinion. When he privately published Our Authorized Bible Vindicated in 1930, the church was quick to reject it. To quote Meyers: "Incredibly, although his book enjoyed wide acceptance among his ministerial colleagues, it was rejected outright by a `Committee of Review' set up in 1930 by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists."

It is possible that W. W. Prescott had influenced Wilkinson toward verbal inspiration and Fundamentalism. W. C. White, in a 1928 letter to L. E. Froom, credits Prescott with presenting the views of Francois Gaussen, a flamboyant defender of verbal inspiration, to the students at Battle Creek when Prescott was president there. According to White, Prescott's "very forceful" presentations had "resulted in bringing into our work questions and perplexities without end, and always increasing."

Can one edit, indeed, "improve" writings that have come as a result of inspiration? Prescott himself was forced to adopt a more moderate position on that question when he was asked to update, improve, and annotate the historical quotations for the 1911 edition of The Great Controversy. The minutes of the 1919 Bible Conference reveal that Prescott had worked his way through the crisis to a settled, "practical" position. But if Prescott had moderated his position, it evidently had no effect on Wilkinson, for Our Authorized Bible Vindicated constitutes a vigorous defense, not only of the King James Version, but of verbal inspiration as well. We turn now to a closer examination of Wilkinson's defense of the King James Version.


Unfortunately, I do not have the rest of the document listed above.

Last edited by Gregory; 09/04/13 04:48 PM.

Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Why the King James Version is Superior... [Re: Gregory] #155780
09/04/13 05:17 PM
09/04/13 05:17 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Gregory
Unfortunately, I do not have the rest of the document listed above.
You can find the rest HERE


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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