HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
MrAbdullaQodiriy, ByronS, TruthinTypes, LoveGodsWord, Freth
1316 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,032
Posts192,936
Members1,316
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
Kevin H 12
Daryl 10
Rick H 3
August
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Member Spotlight
Daryl
Daryl
Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 24,944
Joined: July 2000
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
2 registered members (Daryl, dedication), 338 guests, and 13 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 12 of 13 1 2 10 11 12 13
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: APL] #157144
10/14/13 06:19 AM
10/14/13 06:19 AM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,554
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
Christ's physical body came from the DNA passed down from King David and the line of descendants to Mary. He was fully human, "tempted in all points as we are".

But His mind was completely surrendered to the Holy Spirit and to God from the very beginning. He was born of the Spirit from birth, He didn't need to be "born again" of the spirit, like we must.

In this sense He was not altogether like us, for we must be born again of the Spirit.
Is the mind completely separate from the Body????? The mind can not work without a body.


The brain is part of the body, but the mind (thoughts), when placed under the control of the Holy Spirit thinks differently than the mind that is left to run in it's own channels.


Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: dedication
I agree -- and I don't think there was a "sudden DNA change" either. 
Actually - I completely disagree with you. Not sure how you can agree with me. You appear to claim that DNA can only be changed by God. This is not true. Viruses prove this. Unless you believe that God created viruses, which are the epitome of selfishness.


Your misunderstanding results from reading too quickly and skipping information.
I mentioned a sudden complete change in DNA could only happen if God re-created Adam and Eve carnal in that instant.
You objected and
I agreed that God did not suddenly change Adam and Eve's DNA into carnal DNA.
I did NOT say DNA cannot change. DNA changes little by little over time and through generations as the result of sinful habits and abusing the laws of nature. There has obviously been a great change in human DNA from the time of Adam to our present day.
It's the SUDDEN DNA change that I objected to.

Did God create viruses?
-- viruses developed from things that God created, but God did not create virus in it's destructive form. AND that development wasn't sudden either, -- the health of pre-flood peoples was astonishingly healthy, they didn't battle all the viruses that developed over the later centuries.


Originally Posted By: APL
A virus attacks our cells. Does not the say anything to you???


It does NOT tell me that a whole bunch of viruses suddenly popped up the day Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.
In fact people didn't seem to get sick in the pre-flood era -- they lived to be almost 1000 years old.
It took more than 2000 years for sin to wear down the human system and develop disease causing viruses that greatly shortened people's lives. By the time Christ came the first time, disease was all over the place -- but you don't read that being the case in the Genesis stories.

Originally Posted By: APL
Christ being born again. Consider, John 17:19 AKJV And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Did Christ undergo a process of sanctification? If so, what does that mean?


It does NOT mean that Christ had to be "born again" from a carnal minded being to a spiritual minded person, he was born of the Spirit from the beginning of His human existence. His DNA was inherited giving Him the physical body like others living at that time, with all it's wants and needs, but his mind was filled with the Holy Spirit from the beginning, enabling Him to keep His thoughts on the things that were pure and holy. -- that's what "born again" means -- born of the spirit.

To "sanctify" means to set apart for holy purpose.
(God sanctified the Sabbath day -- set it apart for Holy Purpose in Genesis 2)

John 17 was Jesus prayer before the "hour of darkness" in Gethsemane and the crucifixion. As a human, Christ's holy sinlessness was dependant upon prayer and constant connection with the Father. And at this time especially the whole world hung in the balance as Jesus set Himself apart for a holy purpose, a purpose that His humanity shrank from, -- that of a cruel death -- dying for the lost mankind.

Jesus commits himself to the obedience of death for a holy purpose (for the salvation of humanity) so His disciples likewise may be set apart for a holy purpose.



Originally Posted By: APL
If Jesus Christ had never been born again, could you and I have ever been born again?—No. But he was born again, from the world of righteousness into the world of sin; that we might be born again, from the world of sin into the world of righteousness. He was born again, and was made partaker of the human nature, that we might be born again, and so made partakers of the divine nature. He was born again, unto earth, unto sin, and unto man, that we might be born again unto heaven, unto righteousness, and unto God. {August 1, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 487.3}


None of the quotes disagree with what I wrote:

This is talking about Christ experiencing a completely different "born again" than what I was referring to.
Yes, Christ who was God, (He existed prior to His incarnation) came to this earth and was BORN with a human body. He descended from a celestial Being, and He was born human with the complete DNA that makes up a human body; the DNA that had undergone 4000 years of degeneration due to sin.

But AS A HUMAN (once He was born as a human) He didn't have to be "born again" from carnal minded to spiritual minded -- Christ was not born with a carnal mind, -- He never partook of sin, He never sinned even in thought, there was no sin in Him. He did not have to be born again from the carnal to the spiritual.
He did not have to experience the "born again" experience we MUST experience.

Yes, because Christ descended from heaven and took on humanity, being born with a human body, therefore we can be born again with a spiritual mind, and eventual-- at the second coming, given a new body.

Christ's humanity is what we, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit may gain a likeness to.

When we are "born again" our minds (thinking focus and thinking patterns) become spiritual.

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Romans 12:1-2 present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,
Eph. Ephesians 4:22-24
Put off concerning the former way of life concerning the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;


But while Christ became like us (was born) in a physical state like us, He was never like us in our carnal state -- He was never carnal.
His mind was always alive to spiritual realities (born of the spirit).

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #157145
10/14/13 07:17 AM
10/14/13 07:17 AM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,554
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

So, the question remains - What constitutes an unknown sin? Which sins can born-again, baptized believers commit without realizing it?

If we can say what it is - it won't be unknown anymore.

Everyone has a multitude of sins they have to battle with. The Holy Spirit through different means leads us to recognize and overcome these sins -- but not all at once.

It's sort of like cleaning house.
A person comes to Christ and surrenders their life to Him. Born again their minds are open to spiritual things.
Immediately great changes take place -- all the obvious things tend to be dealt with rather quickly, for a born again Christian does not want to sin and bring dishonor upon Christ.

But there are lots of corners, cupboards, closets, etc. in a house. After a big cleaning -- the house looks and feels clean as long as those closets and cupboards remain closed.

So now, the holy Spirit starts taking us through those closets, and pointing out LITTLE things (at least we had thought them little) that shouldn't be there. It's amazing how we can deceive ourselves on some of these so called little things.

And the Holy Spirit always seems to find more "little things" in the drawers of our minds and hearts. After we've finally, by Divine help, cleaned out the character defects He pointed to in the last drawer He opened, there always seems to be more in some other little drawer of the mind. And some of those "little" things, seem to be so much a part of us (that's who I am) sort of feeling that it takes time to change, as we keep falling back into it.
There are sins of omission, commission, and simply wishing, sins of attitude, interpersonal sins, pride, selfishness, lack of love, the list is long.

Anyone who thinks they have cleaned out all sin in their lives just because they have "cleaned out" all the obvious sins has a small picture of sin.

All we can do is allow the Holy Spirit to lead in our lives in this cleaning work, and follow in obedience, claiming the promise

Phil. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:


Believers do not willingly sin.
That does not mean they have nothing left to overcome.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: dedication] #157168
10/14/13 07:20 PM
10/14/13 07:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
If we can say what it is - it won't be unknown anymore.. . . There are sins of omission, commission, and simply wishing, sins of attitude, interpersonal sins, pride, selfishness, lack of love, the list is long.

Are they ignorant of the fact they are committing one of these sins 1) before, 2) during, and 3) after they sin? Or, are they aware of the fact immediately after they sin? Also, are people around them aware of the fact they are sinning?

In particular, which sins do believers commit unknowingly who have learned how to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded?

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: dedication] #157169
10/14/13 07:23 PM
10/14/13 07:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Jesus takes the sin problem deeper than "doing".

Matt. 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

Sin begins in our minds.

Is cherishing sin a form of "doing"?

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: APL] #157170
10/14/13 07:36 PM
10/14/13 07:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
M: I'm not a fan of the "state of being" (Sin) versus "state of doing" (sins) explanation of sin. I like the following definitions:

A: Yes, "sin is transgression of the law". And I ask - again - WHAT LAW? And in so answering, include how all creation groans under the weight of sin, transgression of the law. I agree with the definition, that sin is transgression of the law. Now from your paradigm, please explain how cancer develops via transgression of the law since ALL disease and death comes from transgression of the law. And one more thing - HOW was Jesus made to be sin for us? He never was on the "doing" side, so He never could fit your explanation.

Good questions. I, for one, do not believe having a disease counts as "THE transgression of THE law". True, the existence of disease is the result of sinning (normally human choices, sometimes evil angels tampering with nature); however, having a disease is not the same as sinning. Innocent people get diseases quite regularly. It is nor their fault. They didn't sin.

Jesus didn't have to sin to suffer our sin debt of death. He suffered for each and every sin committed before, during, and after His sojourn on earth. He suffered as though He had committed them Himself.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #157172
10/14/13 08:01 PM
10/14/13 08:01 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
I never said that personal disease is always a result of personal transgression. Do recall Exodus 20:5. Certain childhood cancers can be related back to what grand parents experience. Still, all disease is ultimately a result of the transgression.

Your last paragraph uses a lot of nice catchy phrases, but what do they mean? "sin debt" for example. 1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed." Note the end result - HEALING. How was it Christ bore our sins in His body? He never transgressed!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #157174
10/14/13 09:56 PM
10/14/13 09:56 PM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,554
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: dedication
Jesus takes the sin problem deeper than "doing".

Matt. 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

Sin begins in our minds.

Is cherishing sin a form of "doing"?

Is there a difference between "cherishing" (loving and refusing to give up) a sin and unconsciously having sin?

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: dedication] #157184
10/15/13 04:37 AM
10/15/13 04:37 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL, in my mind it is very simple. This may disqualify me as a study partner. The definition of sin is "the transgression of the the law." People who think, speak, or act contrary to the law of God (10C) are guilty of sinning. Jesus paid the price for sin. He made atonement and salvation available to people who comply with the conditions.

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: dedication] #157185
10/15/13 04:41 AM
10/15/13 04:41 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
M: Is cherishing sin a form of "doing"?

D: Is there a difference between "cherishing" (loving and refusing to give up) a sin and unconsciously having sin?

To my way of thinking cherishing sin is fundamentally different than not knowing you are sinning (because you don't realize it is a sin, you haven't learned it or been convicted yet).

What do you think?

Re: From Sinners to Saints, Part 3 - Which Way? (Sermon by Arnold Sy Go) [Re: Mountain Man] #157235
10/16/13 05:38 PM
10/16/13 05:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
If we can say what it is - it won't be unknown anymore.. . . There are sins of omission, commission, and simply wishing, sins of attitude, interpersonal sins, pride, selfishness, lack of love, the list is long.

Are they ignorant of the fact they are committing one of these sins 1) before, 2) during, and 3) after they sin? Or, are they aware of the fact immediately after they sin?

Also, are people around them aware of the fact they are sinning?

In particular, which sins do believers commit unknowingly who have learned how to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded?

Page 12 of 13 1 2 10 11 12 13

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
The King of the North
by Kevin H. 08/14/22 01:57 AM
The 'Common Good' versus Religious Liberty
by Kevin H. 08/13/22 05:37 PM
Angels with an URGENT MESSAGE
by dedication. 08/08/22 04:36 PM
Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man
by dedication. 07/27/22 01:08 AM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 07/26/22 10:57 AM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
Seventh Day Sabbath Apologetics
by dedication. 07/24/22 11:51 PM
Pope Francis Is in Control
by dedication. 07/24/22 09:50 PM
LLU Endorses Gay Pride Month!
by ProdigalOne. 07/21/22 02:44 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1