I used this post to create a thread on the subject of free will.

Following along what Green posted in another thread, God told them not to eat the fruit from only one certain tree and told them what the consequence would be if they went against His will and ate the fruit from that particular tree.

God didn't want Adam & Eve to sin, however, they went contrary to what God didn't want them to do and chose to eat the fruit from that tree.

In other words, they chose their will over God's revealed will, which tells me that they had free will to the point that they were able to choose to go against God's revealed will, which constituted sin.

Free will is the power to choose to go in accordance with God's will or against His will.

Consequence is the result of going in accordance with God's will or against His will.

Elle,

Are you, therefore, saying that it was God's intention for Adam and Eve to sin and consequently for all of us to sin?

Daryl, your 3 posts above is all related to freewill. Isn't it going quite a bit out of topic? Already I have answered the freewill question with a general statement to Kland and some to Green. Details study from the Bible will only show that, but if you want to get into much details; then why don't you open another discussion about it and provide a link in this discussion to it. Or if you want, I'll answer your questions here. But these discussion typically gets very long and I see that it will deviate much from this discussion.

I think freewill has much to do with this form of universalism. We will necessarily run into it now and then, but I think it's a good idea to have a separate thread so that they don't get unnecessarily intertwined.

I also think freewill has a lot to do with this thread topic, however, I am also OK with starting a new thread on the subject of freewill.

Elle and others:

I have created a new thread out of these posts, therefore, this newly created thread is now on topic, therefore, Elle can now respond to these posts separate from the other thread.

Elle, What I hear you saying is that they never had the opportunity therefore the Lord gave them a second opportunity. Is that what you meant?

And here I hear you saying man has a will but it's not free. What alternatives for that will is there if it's not free?


So when Daryl, Green, I, and others object to you, then that will, that objection is 90% limited. We only control 10%, but even that, the Lord is controlling that when it conflicts with the Lord's plan.

Therefore the Lord is objecting to you, Elle.

I think that formalizes the definition of what a number of us have been saying.

If a woman is raped, this it is clearly god's will.

I will be able to comment on the posts next week; but keep up the discussion.

Blessings!

Christianity has debated this question for centuries.

Calvinism teaches the Sovereignty of God pre determined who will be saved and who won't be saved and His irresistible grace will cause the elect to respond and be saved, while the lost are left to their damnation.

In opposition Arminianism taught that mankind had the choice. God supplies salvation, a person accepts or rejects it.

The Calvinistic view made God rather arbitrary and unfair, as to why a God of love would deliberately pre-determine some to suffer damnation with no regard to their choice in the matter.

From this arose Universalism -- which teaches that since "the Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" and since God pre-determines with no regard to human choice who will be saved, therefore all would be saved in the end.

But scripture clearly teaches that not all are saved.
Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

Adventists have a strong leaning to Arminianism. The whole Great Controversy Theme is based on the premise that mankind is given the choice.

It's the only view that takes into account ALL aspects -- God's grace and the Holy Spirits work upon hearts and minds, and mankinds choice to respond and follow, or rebel and wallow in sin. It answers as to why some are saved and some are lost even though God wants all to repent and be saved, yet many refuse.

God does not want a universe full of controlled beings, He wants beings who love and obey because they love doing so with all their hearts and minds -- of their own free will.

CHRIST DIED FOR ALL

2 Tim 2:6 Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all,
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,..that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

SALVATION OFFERED TO ALL

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

THE CALL TO GO OUT TO ALL
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

THE HOLY SPIRIT (the spirit of Grace) to work on all
1 Cor. 12:7 The manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.

THE CHOICE IS OURS
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


All are called

Those who respond are chosen (adopted) -- they are the elect --sons and daughters of God.
They are lead by the Holy Spirit and as they willingly follow and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior they are changed from "glory to glory".

Those who refuse the call and resist the pleadings of the Holy Spirit are at the mercy of evil angels who lead them deeper into sin and destruction. Sin is slavery.

Responding to Christ is freedom.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Sorry for the delay. I will start at the top with Daryl’s statement and work my way down.

Daryl what you say above has some truth but is misleading. I would restate as the following : Man’s will was given some authority, but not sovereignty. The sovereign will(self-derived) of the Lord is more powerful than man’s will(no matter how large the authority given by the Lord).

While we may sell ourself to sin(or "to the devil"), we do not have the authority to do so in perpetuity. The Lord reserve sovereignty over any of His creation as OWNER as stated in Lev 25:23 the land could not be sold forever. His Sovereign will is written in the plan of salvation by which we find Him being “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). In this statement alone, we find that the Lord took the responsibility of all of His creation from the beginning. However, this does not mean He will take SOLE responsibility of all sin. He gave man authority, and will hold him responsible for the authority given under him. So we see man will be judge by his works(Rev 20:12,13) His judgment will be according to the sin commited and to the prescribed restitution described in His laws and will be conducted in the manner described in the Law of Jubilee and other scriptures. In this we see that the ultimate responsibility of all sins rest on the creator and He knows how to correct man and all the nations.

Judgment prove that man has authority but to say he has "free will" in the way to say that man's choice overrides the Lord's sovereign plan is not true.

We need to take all of scriptures into account to really understand the truth of the matter. If we put any scriptures aside, we then start to fabricate our own “truth”. I’m sure no one wants to do that here.

How Free is Man’s Will?
Man has a will, but it is not “free”. Man’s will is always subject to other people in authority above us, to society expectations, to world events, etc….And the Lord will override our will whenever He pleases. Yes we may "rebell" and reap consequences from it, but this does not prove we are "free". I'll come to this later.

Basically we are not as “free” as we perveive to be by far. In our little imagination to stroke our ego, the “old man” wants to view himself “free”, but that is far from plain reality.

Reality is man’s will is easily manipulated by many factors beyond his control. To start we had no say in being born or into what family, race, country, or religion. After that, throughout our upbringing when our mind is being shaped and habits are formed; we are taught the will of others – especially the parent. Their guiding and teaching manipulates our will and shapes it according to their will. After this, children go to school where their will is further manipulated by teachers and their peers. Then the will of the government, who shape school curriculum, manipulate children to conform to their standard of behavior.

So what we perceive as our “free will” is actually the sum of millions of manipulations that shaped the subconscious mind while growing up. Then these determine our ability to discern and make decisions throughout life.

Now, while parents, teachers, friends, social pressure, etc… manipulates us, what about the Lord. Does He manipulate us in any manner, or does He remain aloof while men and women do all of the manipulation? The Lord does His level of manipulation also. So this concept that man has “free will” is a deception created ideology by man that #1 is not realistic and #2 is not Biblical.

Now let's look what the Bible says which will show us the real reality of this.

I'm not that good in winnowing doublespeak. Someone else needs to help out here. There seems to be a mixing of definitions. A definition of free will needs to be agreed upon so it doesn't jump all over the place.

Free will
when referring to salvation this is understood in light of the controversy taking place between God's kingdom and Satan's kingdom.

In one sense Elle is right -- we really are never totally free, for the person who choses to rebel against God becomes ensnared in Satan's traps. God in His great love seeks to free us from Satan's traps and bring us back into His keeping.
Romans 6 shows we are either slaves to sin or servants of righteousness.
We can't will ourselves free from the cruel master of sin, only by coming to Christ can we find that freedom.


So Christ came to give us the freedom to choose!
For God - salvation is all about free choice.

The concept that God will over ride a person's choices to live in sin is true ONLY if the person himself/herself responds to God's offer and His constant calls to return. Anyone trapped in Satan's addictions and traps can depend upon God's great power to break those chains and bring them to Himself.

But God will NOT force anyone to love and obey Him for eternity who choses not to do so.

So free choice means choosing to submit oneself to God and begging Him to break the chains and bonds of sin.

It is God who has given sinners hopelessly enslaved in sin, the freedom to choose release, and has promised to save all who call upon His name for that release.

So let's have a clear and concise definition of free will that everyone can agree what is being talked about.

Go ahead kland give a definition. Please be specific in your definition what type of free will you have when servant to Christ or slaves to satan. One quote I agree with EGW, is she said there's no middle ground.

Free will?
It's not free will according to the world's definition.

God's freedom of choice means giving us the freedom to choose Who will be our Lord and master.

Do you believe that man stand in a middle ground where they can choose to serve the Lord or the devil?

Do you believe what scripture says about the unbeliever (or the natural man)?

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” 1Cr 2:14

”...There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God,
...” Rom 3:10-12

Then if the natural man does not understand the Lord and think all his stuff is foolish, and does not seek the Lord??? then how can they choose to serve him and how does the believer have ever come to choose to serve Him?

Elle, how about this:

Do you believe that man stand in a middle ground where they can choose to serve the Lord or the devil?

Do you believe what scripture says about the unbeliever (or the natural man)?

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” 1Cr 2:14

”...There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God,
...” Rom 3:10-12

Then if the natural man does not understand the Lord and think all his stuff is foolish, and does not seek the Lord??? then how can they choose to serve him and how does the believer have ever come to choose to serve Him?

Satan has done his best to bind us and enslave us.
It is true that without God's intervention there would be no choice.

But God has intervened -- PRAISE HIS NAME!
Satan is defeated, and God's spirit is wooing everyone to come to Him.
"Whosoever will may come." The invitation goes out to all.

Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It's up to us whether or not we will respond and allow the Holy spirit to change our lives.

Song

Out of my bondage sorrow and night, Jesus I come, Jesus I come
Into Thy freedom, gladness and light, Jesus I come to Thee
Out of my sickness, into Thy health,
Out of life's storms and into they calm.
Out of my sin and into Thyself, Jesus I come to Thee.

Out of my shameful failure and loss, Jesus I come, Jesus I come
Into the glorious gain of Thy cross, Jesus I come to Thee
Out of my earth's sorrows into Thy balm,
Out of despair into raptures above
Out of distress to jubilant psalm, Jesus I come to thee.

Out of the fear and dread of the tomb, Jesus I come, Jesus I come
Into the joy and light of Thy home, Jesus, I come to Thee
Out of the depths of ruin untold,
Into the peace of Thy sheltering fold,
Ever They glorious face to behold, Jesus I come to Thee.

One more stanza.
Out of unrest and arrogant pride Jesus I come, Jesus I come
Into Thy blessed will to abide, Jesus I come, Jesus I come
Out of myself to dwell in Thy love,
Out of my want into riches above, Jesus I come to Thee.

This freedom of choice that God gives is one of the biggest reasons why Christ will NEVER set up a kingdom in which He forces everyone to submit to His laws and His reign.

Through His great gift of grace and redemption and the ceaseless efforts of the Holy Spirit to draw all men to Him, Christ has opened the door of CHOICE --
"Whosoever will may come" the invitation is given to all.

And all who respond will inherit the kingdom -- yes a kingdom on this earth AFTER it is completely cleansed of sin and made new.

The choice is to accept the call of the Author of Life, peace, love and everlasting joy.
He will place His spirit in us and transform our lives into noble, loving Christ like characters -- if we are willing.
(see Isaiah 1:18-19 Ezekiel 36:26-27)

THE OTHER CHOICE -- to remain shackled in the prison house of sensual pleasures, arrogant pride, exploitation, misery, death.

Why is the natural man natural and not spiritual?

It seems as if Elle has disagreed with your definition.

Would you say free choice can only be choice that is not coerced, a choice that is freely made, a choice that one wants to make? For instance, if I want to stand naked in the middle of the Interstate at midnight and shoot off bottle rockets knowing full well that I would be arrested, I can still choose to do that. But would you call that free choice? Most people do not do that, even if they wanted to, because they do not really feel they have free choice. Legal or otherwise.

The problem is people tend to look at the result of the choice as if it were coerced.
We have the freedom to jump off a cliff and experience the thrill of a free fall, but the end thereof is death. Would you say the admonition NOT to jump off a cliff is coercion?

In the same sense God admonished Adam and Eve not to jump into Satan's territory and follow his suggestion (eat of the tree of good and evil) and experience the thrill of sin cutting themselves off from the source of life.

But they did anyway.
Sin by its very nature leads to death, yet people think that just because it usually doesn't happen immediately that the end result is a coercion device from God.

In reality -- since Adam mankind in totality jumped off the cliff and are hurtling to certain destruction, BUT GOD prepared for everyone a life saving "parachute" (symbolically) in Christ, and urges us to "pull the cord" of faith and He will lift us up unto high ground once again and we can have life eternal.

But he gives us that choice -- we can continue hurtling in the fall of sin unto death, or pull that cord of faith and be rescued. In fact, God has sent His Holy Spirit to urge us to pull that cord -- it is His spirit calling us imploring us.
However, even if we pull the cord we still have the choice to let go and continue the fall to certain death.

This whole 6000 years of sin is allowed to reveal to all the reality that sin is in verity jumping off the cliff unto certain destruction and death. Sin has already shown it's destructive, terrible nature, however many people still aren't convinced of its evil.
In the last days God will remove His restraining hand on the whole reality of sin and allow it to show to all the full horror and destructiveness of its nature -- that's the great time of trouble such as never was. Sin will be allowed to show it's deadly, terrible, destructive reality.
But thankfully God will end the terror.

It is God that has made available the choice for everyone.
Do we want to pull the cord of faith and be rescued -- be lifted up out of sin unto the paths of righteousness and life in Christ,
or are we determined to experience the thrills of sin and ignore the reality that jumping off a cliff, no matter how thrilling, ends in death. And that death isn't just the sleep of the first death, it is eternal death.

In the kingdom to come everyone there will serve God BECAUSE THEY LOVE HIM AND freely follow Him with joy and praise. God will never force the nations to give up sin. After this probationary life is over, there is no second choice.

Even at the second resurrection when the lost are raised, they will reveal that their choice is to remove God from His throne and restore satan as the "prince of this world". In an army as numerous as the sands of the sea they connive to conquer God's city and take it over. Yes, God will reveal to them how He worked tirelessly to rescue them, but they would not come, and they will acknowledge that God did everything He could for their rescue, but their hearts remain unchanged -- they loved sin and their resurrection just reveals the state of their hearts as they march on God's city with all the implements of war that satan has caused mankind to invent.
When God's holy glory is unveiled and shines forth, sin is consumed. All the weapons of war explode in one horrific explosion, the whole earth is rocked to its foundations and in flames.

Only those who have forsaken sin and abide in the city of God are sheltered in the final conflagration.

I would say knowing the result of what happens is coercion. But I don't think this is what I'm talking about. It would be that someone admonishes you not to jump off the cliff, but if you do, they will shoot you in the head. They will shoot you before you reach the bottom.

Do you see a difference between cause and effect versus another person doing the coercion?