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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Johann]
#156283
09/17/13 02:52 PM
09/17/13 02:52 PM
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Arnold, there are questions connected with the nature of God which require an almighty insight to answer. Are some of your questions approaching this old adage:
If God is almighty could He create a stone which is so heavy that He cannot lift it Himself?
Scripture teaches us that what is revealed about the nature of God is good for us to examine, but what isn´t is none of our business. It's actually not that complicated or philosophical. You brought up that it is a law of nature that separation from God results in death. Did God create that law of nature? Or is it Satan who made it that way? If Satan was the one who invented that law, can God override it? You said that God is almighty and we shouldn't even question His ability to do anything He wants to do. So, either God made that law and He wants it that way, or Satan made that law but God does not want to change it at the moment. Either way, it is not God's will that it be any different at the moment. We have been in agreement so far. Are you changing your mind? I have not. Not at all. Thanks! So we agree that there is a law of nature that separation from God results in death. We also agree that God does not want to change this law, even though He has the power to do it. So far so good? Now, let's go back to my questions: Would anyone be happy if the sinner was allowed to live forever?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: asygo]
#156288
09/17/13 06:38 PM
09/17/13 06:38 PM
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We also agree that God does not want to change this law, even though He has the power to do it. God's law is immutable, unchangeable.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156289
09/17/13 06:39 PM
09/17/13 06:39 PM
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The difference is you see the death of the wicked as execution by God, euthanasia, what ever. You do not see sin as the causative agent in the death of the wicked. I look to Jesus to see what really happens to the wicked in the end. Christ took on our sin, and it killed Him, He died the death of a sinner. He did not die of execution by God. How did Jesus suffer God's wrath? Blessings, Green Cochoa. What is God's wrath? It is not like your wrath.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156305
09/18/13 02:56 AM
09/18/13 02:56 AM
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We also agree that God does not want to change this law, even though He has the power to do it. God's law is immutable, unchangeable. By the same token, it might be said that God is unchanging (see Malachi 3:6), therefore, He could never sin. Yet we are told that it was possible for Jesus to have sinned. I believe it is also possible, as Arnold is saying here, for God to change His law--He just doesn't want to, nor ever will. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156308
09/18/13 03:53 AM
09/18/13 03:53 AM
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We also agree that God does not want to change this law, even though He has the power to do it. God's law is immutable, unchangeable. By the same token, it might be said that God is unchanging (see Malachi 3:6), therefore, He could never sin. Yet we are told that it was possible for Jesus to have sinned. I believe it is also possible, as Arnold is saying here, for God to change His law--He just doesn't want to, nor ever will. Blessings, Green Cochoa. There are many who claim that by the death of Christ the law was abrogated; but in this they contradict Christ's own words, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. . . . Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." Matthew 5:17-18. It was to atone for man's transgression of the law that Christ laid down His life. Could the law have been changed or set aside, then Christ need not have died. By His life on earth He honored the law of God. By His death He established it. He gave His life as a sacrifice, not to destroy God's law, not to create a lower standard, but that justice might be maintained, that the law might be shown to be immutable, that it might stand fast forever. {COL 314.3} Hm - Matthew 5:17-18 is clear - the law is immutable. EGW states in this reference that the law is immutable. It is unchangeable. Psalms 19:7, the law of the Lord is perfect. The law is a perfect law of liberty, James 1:25. There is no way that God's law can be change. You may believe that the law could be changed. But this again, is a claim of Satan. " His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. {COL 315.1} This includes - thou shalt not kill; Christ gave a perfect expression of God's law. Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have died. But to abrogate the law would be to immortalize transgression, and place the world under Satan's control. It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5} Thus, the claim that God's law could be changed is a claim of Satan! The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3} This includes the whole law.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156312
09/18/13 04:23 AM
09/18/13 04:23 AM
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APL, You are right. Christ did not come to change the law. If God does not change His law, no one can. It can never be changed. But that was not exactly the question. I think you would agree that the law of God is a representation of His character, right? If His character is perfect, therefore, so will be His law. Agreed? Now, if Jesus had sinned, what would His character have become like? This is the very point upon which our discussion may rest: Was it possible for Jesus to sin? God could change His law if He wanted to. Thankfully, He doesn't want to, and never will want to. It will stay the same, not only because of His promise in this regard, but also because of His will. Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.--Ibid., p. 1128. {7ABC 447.4} Basically, APL, IF (and only if) Jesus had sinned, I believe God's law would have changed. Mrs. White says He could have sinned. Therefore, it was possible. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156313
09/18/13 04:24 AM
09/18/13 04:24 AM
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This includes - thou shalt not kill; Christ gave a perfect expression of God's law. "Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation. Christ did not say this. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156314
09/18/13 04:27 AM
09/18/13 04:27 AM
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Mrs. White says this of the sixth commandment: "Thou shalt not kill." {PP 308.4}
All acts of injustice that tend to shorten life; the spirit of hatred and revenge, or the indulgence of any passion that leads to injurious acts toward others, or causes us even to wish them harm (for "whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"); a selfish neglect of caring for the needy or suffering; all self-indulgence or unnecessary deprivation or excessive labor that tends to injure health--all these are, to a greater or less degree, violations of the sixth commandment. {PP 308.5} Clearly, there are "just" acts that shorten life which would be excepted by the above statement. Just such acts are God's and those committed by God's direction. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#156315
09/18/13 04:29 AM
09/18/13 04:29 AM
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SDA
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Again, Mrs. White speaks to this, and shows where the logical end of the reasoning that APL and so many others are following is. There are those who say that nothing, not even insects, should be killed. God has not entrusted any such message to His people. It is possible to stretch the command "Thou shalt not kill" to any limit; but it is not according to sound reasoning to do this. Those who do it have not learned in the school of Christ. {3SM 329.1} Some here have learned in another school than that of Christ. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#156316
09/18/13 04:33 AM
09/18/13 04:33 AM
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SDA
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What is God's wrath? It is not like your wrath. I'm convinced it is not like yours either.  "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the Judgment. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the Judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Here Jesus describes murder as first existing in the mind. That malice and revenge which would delight in deeds of violence is of itself murder. Jesus goes further still, and says, "Whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the Judgment." There is an anger that is not of this criminal nature. A certain kind of indignation is justifiable, under some circumstances, even in the followers of Christ. When they see God dishonored, his name reviled, and the precious cause of truth brought into disrepute by those who profess to revere it, when they see the innocent oppressed and persecuted, a righteous indignation stirs their soul; such anger, born of sensitive morals, is not a sin. .... {2SP 219.3} UNrighteous anger = murder. RIGHTEOUS anger = sinless. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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