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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #156950
10/08/13 04:15 PM
10/08/13 04:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus doesn't mince words. To obey is to live. Disobey and die. No threats. Just truth. Fair.

Exodus
20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

A: Where in your quote does it say God will kill the sinner? There is no question, sinners will die. HOW is the question.

Good question. "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me." What does "visiting" mean? Here are other uses of the word:

Quote:
Exodus
32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
32:34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto [the place] of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
32:35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Numbers
14:12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
14:15 Now [if] thou shalt kill [all] this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,
14:16 Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.
14:17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my LORD be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
14:18 The LORD [is] longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation].

Psalm
59:5 Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah.
59:13 Consume [them] in wrath, consume [them], that they [may] not [be]: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah.

Psalm
89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #156959
10/09/13 01:00 AM
10/09/13 01:00 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
Good question. "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me." What does "visiting" mean? Here are other uses of the word:

Ezekiel 18:20 AKJV The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

Does God inflict punishment on the children of the wicked? Do children suffer because of the sins of the fathers? If so, is it God that causes the suffering? https://kc.instructure.com/courses/871063


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #156971
10/09/13 04:21 PM
10/09/13 04:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Jesus gives life to the laws of nature. They do what He causes them to do. They are not self-acting. Every cell in living organisms do what Jesus causes them to do. This is true of every nanosecond of every day. Diseases do what Jesus causes them to do. Diseases are not self-acting. They do not have life in and of themselves. They are totally dependent upon Jesus to cause them to do what they do.

Jesus doesn't make people sick (with few exceptions, i.e., He caused Moses to temporarily have leprosy). People get sick because they violate natural laws. Nevertheless, Jesus causes the diseases to do what they do. They are not self-acting.

This is also true of the laws that govern nature. Jesus causes it to rain, shine, etc. They are not self-acting. Natural disasters happen when Jesus causes them. They do not have the power to cause themselves.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #156972
10/09/13 04:22 PM
10/09/13 04:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Did we study the meaning of "visiting"?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #156974
10/09/13 04:29 PM
10/09/13 04:29 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus gives life to the laws of nature. They do what He causes them to do. They are not self-acting. Every cell in living organisms do what Jesus causes them to do. This is true of every nanosecond of every day. Diseases do what Jesus causes them to do. Diseases are not self-acting. They do not have life in and of themselves. They are totally dependent upon Jesus to cause them to do what they do.

Jesus doesn't make people sick (with few exceptions, i.e., He caused Moses to temporarily have leprosy). People get sick because they violate natural laws. Nevertheless, Jesus causes the diseases to do what they do. They are not self-acting.

This is also true of the laws that govern nature. Jesus causes it to rain, shine, etc. They are not self-acting. Natural disasters happen when Jesus causes them. They do not have the power to cause themselves.


Jesus does not make people sick, but he causes them to be sick - is that what you are saying?

Can Satan cause disasters? Or is it Jesus that really causes them? What would Job say?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #156975
10/09/13 04:31 PM
10/09/13 04:31 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Visiting:

Exodus 20:3-5 TCW “Do not allow anyone or anything to become a god that you love more than me. 4 “Do not manufacture idols for yourselves designed after things in heaven, on earth or in the sea. 5 Don’t bow down to them or serve them. Such practices will only hurt you and your children, who will reap the consequences of your sins down to the third and fourth generations.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #156978
10/09/13 05:13 PM
10/09/13 05:13 PM
K
kland  Offline
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"who will reap the consequences of your sins"

Doesn't seem like God is doing anything here.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #156984
10/10/13 12:16 AM
10/10/13 12:16 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Jesus does not make people sick, but he causes them to be sick - is that what you are saying? Can Satan cause disasters? Or is it Jesus that really causes them? What would Job say?

Jesus gives life to the laws of nature - not evil angels. Disease cannot do anything in and of itself. It does not have the power to act independent of Jesus. Disease can do what it does because Jesus does what He does. Everything in nature would cease to act if Jesus ceased to give it life. In the case of Job, evil angels were permitted to manipulate the forces of nature. Tragedy followed. Nevertheless, evil angels cannot give life to the forces of nature. Only Jesus can give life to nature. Disaster happened because Jesus empowered nature to respond to the actions of evil angels.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #156986
10/10/13 12:57 AM
10/10/13 12:57 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Posts: 6,431
Canada
Yes God established the laws of nature.
But it is not His will that we are sick.

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

When a person studies some about the defense mechanism of the body it is absolutely amazing how God made our bodies to "fix" themselves.
Even a person who has abused their body for years with smoking, drinking and bad nutrition and is suffering the results can turn that around by following the health rules. Just give the body a good fighting chance and it will start to heal and rebuild.
God made our bodies wonderfully for health!

To me this shows God's love and mercy.
A person who has abused their health doesn't deserve good health, yet God put within our system tremendous resources to rebuild.

Of course, the thousands of years in which sin has played havoc with God's laws, has also caused all manner of weaknesses in the bodies defenses.
It just isn't smart to go against the laws of health, sooner or later the body does break down.

I'm not sure what is meant by "self acting".

The natural laws are usually a cause and effect sequence.
Pour a lot of chemicals into the water system and the effect is sick or dead fish and plant life, and water that is unfit for human consumption, and if people drink it they suffer the results. These results can be passed on to their offspring who have a compromised system more susceptible to disease.

There is no mysterious manipulation here -- break the laws and the effects happen often like the ripples of water when one throws a stone expanding wider and wider.

Is God responsible? Should He have created everything so it was fit for human consumption?


Quote:
"Christ was health and strength in Himself, and when sufferers were in His immediate presence, disease was always rebuked. It was for this that He did not go at once to Lazarus. He could not witness his suffering and not bring him relief. He could not witness disease or death without combating the power of Satan.

" Satan tempted them to regard this restriction as unjust and cruel. ...The author of disease and misery will assail men where he can have the greatest success.{CC 103.5}

This world is a vast lazar house, but Christ came to heal the sick, to proclaim deliverance to the captives of Satan. He was in Himself health and strength. He imparted His life to the sick, the afflicted, those possessed of demons. He turned away none who came to receive His healing power. He knew that those who petitioned Him for help had brought disease upon themselves, yet He did not refuse to heal them. And when virtue from Christ entered into these poor souls they were convicted of sin, and many were healed of their spiritual disease as well as of their physical maladies. The gospel still possesses the same power, and why should we not today witness the same results? {CH 30.1}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #156990
10/10/13 02:32 AM
10/10/13 02:32 AM
APL  Offline
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Active Member 2020

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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Jesus does not make people sick, but he causes them to be sick - is that what you are saying? Can Satan cause disasters? Or is it Jesus that really causes them? What would Job say?

Jesus gives life to the laws of nature - not evil angels. Disease cannot do anything in and of itself. It does not have the power to act independent of Jesus. Disease can do what it does because Jesus does what He does. Everything in nature would cease to act if Jesus ceased to give it life. In the case of Job, evil angels were permitted to manipulate the forces of nature. Tragedy followed. Nevertheless, evil angels cannot give life to the forces of nature. Only Jesus can give life to nature. Disaster happened because Jesus empowered nature to respond to the actions of evil angels.

Question - is God the cause of evil?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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