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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157093
10/12/13 01:32 AM
10/12/13 01:32 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, I'm not sure how your last post answers my questions. I can speculate, try to read between the lines - however, I would prefer it if you would answer them directly. Hope you don't mind. Happy Sabbath.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157103
10/12/13 05:21 AM
10/12/13 05:21 AM
APL  Offline
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MM - what is not clear in the above quotations? Satan is the destroyer, God is the Restorer. Full Stop...


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157113
10/12/13 11:12 PM
10/12/13 11:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Punishment is not destruction. The passages I posted make it clear Jesus employs the forces of nature to punish sinners.

Quote:
Do you believe passages like the ones posted above must be interpreted to mean Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction? For example, does Jesus expect us to read - "Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities." - to mean "Since the flood, God has [permitted evil angels to use] both water and fire in the earth as agents to destroy wicked cities."

Also, does Jesus expect us to read - "These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. . . . and to acknowledge the infinite power of God." - to mean the result of permitting evil angels to destroy leads sinners to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty and to acknowledge the infinite power of God.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157117
10/13/13 01:55 AM
10/13/13 01:55 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
Punishment is not destruction. The passages I posted make it clear Jesus employs the forces of nature to punish sinners.
Hm...
Quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. ... {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

So - the "punishment" that happened to Jerusalem was not destruction??? And this only a foretaste of things to come!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157161
10/14/13 03:23 PM
10/14/13 03:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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A matter of perspective, right. Jesus does not consider it "destruction" when He chooses to punish sinners.

I appreciate the study, APL. It's interesting learning what other people believe. Thank you.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157163
10/14/13 03:46 PM
10/14/13 03:46 PM
APL  Offline
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[quote=MM=Jesus does not consider it "destruction" when He chooses to punish sinners. [/quote]And how the punishment come about? You say God does it directly. But if you take the whole of scripture and EGW, the truth is clear. Sin pays its wage.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157197
10/15/13 02:08 PM
10/15/13 02:08 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Quote:
APL, who do you believe upholds the laws that give the forces of nature life and enables them to act? I suspect you believe Jesus is the source and sustainer of everything. I am certain you do not believe evil angels are the source and sustainer of the laws of nature that run and regulate matter, molecules, plants, animals, people, etc. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Did I misspeak? Do you believe evil angels have power to give life to the forces of nature? Do you believe if Jesus were to cease empowering nature to act that evil angels can empower them to continue acting?
MM, God upholds the laws and gives the power to the forces within the atom.

But does that mean God caused the bomb to blow up over Japan? Did God intend for man to blow it up?

God upholds the laws of gravity.

But does that mean God caused/will/intended for someone to drop a rock from the top of a building onto someone's head? Does that mean that some innocent hikers walking past the side of a mountain were killed by God when part of the mountain gave way and fell on them due to the laws and forces of nature and the freeze-thaw cycle acting upon the rocks above them?

God upholds the laws of physics.

When the drunk gets into thousands of pounds of metal and drives headlong into the family with kids in the backseat and kills them, shall we deteriorate to the point of saying, "It was God's will"?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #157205
10/15/13 07:39 PM
10/15/13 07:39 PM
asygo  Offline
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Either God is UNABLE to prevent bad things from happening, or He is UNWILLING. There are no other options.

If God is UNABLE, then we need to change His moniker to "sometimes mighty" God. "Almighty" will sound hollow.

If God is UNWILLING, then there are two roads before us: we reject the notion that God is unwilling to do something that we would do if we had the power, or we reject the notion that God is bound by what we would or would not do.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157207
10/15/13 08:17 PM
10/15/13 08:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
When the drunk gets into thousands of pounds of metal and drives headlong into the family with kids in the backseat and kills them, shall we deteriorate to the point of saying, "It was God's will"?

Jesus was willing to allow it to happen. He chose not to intervene and prevent it (which He can do without violating the freedom to choose).

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157209
10/16/13 12:05 AM
10/16/13 12:05 AM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: asygo
Either God is UNABLE to prevent bad things from happening, or He is UNWILLING. There are no other options.

If God is UNABLE, then we need to change His moniker to "sometimes mighty" God. "Almighty" will sound hollow.

If God is UNWILLING, then there are two roads before us: we reject the notion that God is unwilling to do something that we would do if we had the power, or we reject the notion that God is bound by what we would or would not do.
a

Whose God? Not mine. Here you present only a or b. Where s c? Either you understand The Great Controversy or not?

We are told that when Satan got Adam to sin he (Satan) became the ruler of this world. Although Chrst has already gained the victory, Satan is still the prince. The story of Job gives us an idea.

Because of His great love for His universe God has to let this run its course to the end.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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