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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157244
10/16/13 06:15 PM
10/16/13 06:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157245
10/16/13 06:17 PM
10/16/13 06:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
A: As my 10 year old niece lay dying of Leukemia, she asked my father why she was suffering so much pain. What would you say?

M: Through tons of tears apologize being sick is so painful. Ensure her Jesus knows her pain and is so sorry, so sad. Give her morphine to lessen the pain. Ensure her Jesus helped the doctors to invent morphine to help lessen her pain. If she wonders why Jesus doesn't instantly heal her miraculously help her understand Jesus will explain it when we all get to heaven. His explanation will make perfect sense.

A: That's pretty much how it went. We don't know why things happen the way they do, but we trust that God is in control and He knows best.

Amen! Cancer is not in control. Evil angels are not in control. Nothing happens without Jesus' permission.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157246
10/16/13 06:20 PM
10/16/13 06:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Did Jesus command Moses to murder?

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Did Samuel murder?

1 Samuel
15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Did Jesus murder?

Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Acts
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157247
10/16/13 07:23 PM
10/16/13 07:23 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Jesus command Moses to murder?

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Did Samuel murder?

1 Samuel
15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Did Jesus murder?

Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Acts
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.
Did God condone adultery? He gave laws for divorce!!! God hates divorce! We need to read the big picture. Were the child or Israel EVER supposed to fight? NO! All their fighting was a rejection of God. If you reject God, does He at once completely abandon you? NO. He will give instructions to minimize the damage, in war are in divorce. But just as Israel, if you continue in your own way, you will fail and there will come a point of no return.

The Ultimate revelation of the truth about God is found in Jesus Christ. What did Jesus say to do????????????

Matthew 5:38-48
38 You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat, let him have your cloak also.
41 And whoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him that asks you, and from him that would borrow of you turn not you away.
43 You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love them which love you, what reward have you? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if you salute your brothers only, what do you more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So what are we to do when we are attacked???? JESUS CHRIST QUOTE: "DO NOT RESIST EVIL". It is a hard teaching. Our natural selfish nature wants to fight in self-defense. We are not to defend self. We are to leave that to God! Read the story of Jacob with Laban and then Esau. Read the deliverance of the people from captivity from Egypt. Read 2 Chronicles 20. Might we be killed? YES! So what? Our inheritence is not of this world.

Originally Posted By: EJW
THE ORIGIN OF WAR

The question is asked by the Apostle James, "From whence come wars and fightings among you?" And the answer immediately follows: "Come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not; ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain; ye fight and war, yet ye receive not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4: 1-3. {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.2}

From the next verse we learn that these desires whence come wars and fightings, are worldly lusts, for the question is asked, "Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.3}

Turn now to 1 John 2: 15-17, and we shall find a classification of these worldly lusts that lead to war: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof; but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.4}

Take a single instance of the working of this desire to have. Two men own adjoining fields, but there is a dispute as to the boundary line. The land is valuable, and that portion through which the dividing fence runs is the most valuable of all. A claims that there was a mistake in the survey, and that the fence ought to be moved ten yards in order to give him the land that belongs to him. But B insists that he has no more land than belongs to him, but that, on the contrary, a portion of what A claims really belongs to him, at any rate he will not yield an inch. {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.5}

Each is determined to have his "rights." Besides the lust of the flesh, the pride of life comes in, and each man feels that it would be wholly inconsistent with his dignity to yield to the other. Moreover threats and insulting words have been used, such as "no man of proper spirit could be expected to stand." Each feels himself not only wronged, but abused, and each demands from the other an apology and reparation. But each one feels that his "honour" as well as his property is at stake, and is determined not to yield. {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.6}

So the feud grows. From hard words the men come to blows. Finally each deliberately resolves to take the other's life. Then the disputed boundary will not only be settled, but the survivor can take as much more of the other's property as he wishes. {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.7}

Accordingly they arm themselves with knives or guns, and meet and begin stabbing or shooting, until one of them is dead. Then what follows:-Why, the man who kills the other is called a murderer, and is hanged, denounced by all the neighbourhood. {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.8}

But suppose now that instead of two farms we have two countries; instead of a few roods of land we have some thousands of square miles; and instead of two men involved, we have hundreds of thousands. There is a dispute as to the boundary line. Each nation feels that its rights are threatened; and, besides, undiplomatic language has been used, which must be resented. The "national honour" will not allow any concessions on either side. So armed bodies of men meet and shoot at each other. Instead of one man, thousands are killed. The conquerors take the disputed territory, and as much more as they wish, and the victorious army marches home. How are they regarded? Are they called murderers?-Oh, no; they are greeted with shouts and songs, and are lauded as patriots. {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.9}

Where is the difference in the two cases?-It is only in the greater number of men killed in the second case. Therefore we must conclude that the sole difference between war and murder is in the extent of the interests and the number of people involved. If only one man is killed, it is murder. If one man kills four or five men, that is an aggravated case of murder. But if thousands fight, and hundreds are killed, that is "glorious war," although precisely the same passions lead to each result. The question is, Does God regard it as less sinful to kill a thousand men than to kill one? His Word answers: "Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished." Proverbs 11: 21. {January 23, 1896 EJW, PTUK 51.10}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157249
10/16/13 09:57 PM
10/16/13 09:57 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Jesus command Moses to murder?

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

No. If the 10C is a transcript of God's character, it would be rather arbitrary for Him to command Moses to do something He wouldn't do Himself.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Samuel murder?

1 Samuel
15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

For the same reason above, I don't think so. God told the Israelites to kill the Amalekites, didn't He? Samuel was only obeying God's command. BTW, Saul got in trouble for not doing it himself.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Jesus murder?

Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Acts
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

No.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157250
10/16/13 09:59 PM
10/16/13 09:59 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
A: As my 10 year old niece lay dying of Leukemia, she asked my father why she was suffering so much pain. What would you say?

M: Through tons of tears apologize being sick is so painful. Ensure her Jesus knows her pain and is so sorry, so sad. Give her morphine to lessen the pain. Ensure her Jesus helped the doctors to invent morphine to help lessen her pain. If she wonders why Jesus doesn't instantly heal her miraculously help her understand Jesus will explain it when we all get to heaven. His explanation will make perfect sense.

A: That's pretty much how it went. We don't know why things happen the way they do, but we trust that God is in control and He knows best.

Amen! Cancer is not in control. Evil angels are not in control. Nothing happens without Jesus' permission.

Amen back at you.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157251
10/16/13 10:46 PM
10/16/13 10:46 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
No. If the 10C is a transcript of God's character, it would be rather arbitrary for Him to command Moses to do something He wouldn't do Himself.
Do we see a clear representation of God in the OT? IF we do, then did Jesus need to come and show us the Father? EGW: All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1} This quote read in context shows this means His life on earth.
Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

What did Jesus say about resisting evil?

What about divorce? Is this God's will? WHY did God give laws for divorce? The same reason He gave a number of permissive laws. NOT because they were ideal, but to limit the inevitable damage.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157252
10/16/13 10:46 PM
10/16/13 10:46 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
A: As my 10 year old niece lay dying of Leukemia, she asked my father why she was suffering so much pain. What would you say?

M: Through tons of tears apologize being sick is so painful. Ensure her Jesus knows her pain and is so sorry, so sad. Give her morphine to lessen the pain. Ensure her Jesus helped the doctors to invent morphine to help lessen her pain. If she wonders why Jesus doesn't instantly heal her miraculously help her understand Jesus will explain it when we all get to heaven. His explanation will make perfect sense.

A: That's pretty much how it went. We don't know why things happen the way they do, but we trust that God is in control and He knows best.

Amen! Cancer is not in control. Evil angels are not in control. Nothing happens without Jesus' permission.

Amen back at you.
Amen - God wants little kids to have cancer. REALLY? Not my God!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157254
10/17/13 12:34 AM
10/17/13 12:34 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
God wants little kids to have cancer. REALLY? Not my God!

APL, do you know of anyone who believes "God wants little kids to have cancer"? I've never heard of anyone who believes it.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157255
10/17/13 12:40 AM
10/17/13 12:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Jesus command Moses to murder?

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Did Samuel murder?

1 Samuel
15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Did Jesus murder?

Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Acts
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

Did God condone adultery?

APL, I don't understand your response. Please answer my questions in the context each passage. Thank you.

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