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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157256
10/17/13 02:12 AM
10/17/13 02:12 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Posts: 5,583
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Amen - God wants little kids to have cancer. REALLY? Not my God! Your god must be impotent to prevent it, since it happens all the time. Your god is weak. He's not the Creator. Neither is He the Savior. If you claim otherwise, then why doesn't your god stop it? Not only did your god watch my 10 year old niece die of cancer, he also watched my 31 year old cousin die a few weeks ago. Your god is useless. A god who cannot save from cancer certainly cannot save from death. But I'm sure he is nice and friendly. He weeps as he helplessly watches sin make a mess of things. He comforts you that he doesn't want any of this to happen; it's just that he can't prevent it. Behold your god.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: asygo]
#157257
10/17/13 04:00 AM
10/17/13 04:00 AM
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SDA
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Amen - God wants little kids to have cancer. REALLY? Not my God! Your god must be impotent to prevent it, since it happens all the time. Your god is weak. He's not the Creator. Neither is He the Savior. If you claim otherwise, then why doesn't your god stop it? Not only did your god watch my 10 year old niece die of cancer, he also watched my 31 year old cousin die a few weeks ago. Your god is useless. A god who cannot save from cancer certainly cannot save from death. But I'm sure he is nice and friendly. He weeps as he helplessly watches sin make a mess of things. He comforts you that he doesn't want any of this to happen; it's just that he can't prevent it. Behold your god. Not only did your god not prevent your niece and cousin from dying, your god wanted them to die, it was your god's will. This is calling evil good, Isaiah 5:20. I suggest you listen to the presentations titled, "Why Did God Allow This To Happen To Me?" which can be heard HERE
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#157258
10/17/13 04:05 AM
10/17/13 04:05 AM
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SDA
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Did Jesus command Moses to murder?
Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Did Samuel murder?
1 Samuel
15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.
Did Jesus murder?
Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Acts
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband. Did God condone adultery? APL, I don't understand your response. Please answer my questions in the context each passage. Thank you. MM - Did God give instructions for the Israelites to fight? Yes. Does this mean God wanted them to fight? NO. Did God give the Israelites instructions for divorce? Yes. Does this mean God wanted them to divorce? NO! Why did God give instructions for divorce? Apply your answer to the instructions for fighting. Just because there are instructions in how to deal the a given situation does not mean that this is what God wanted in the first place. The Israelites were NEVER supposed to fight, do you agree, YES or NO???
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#157259
10/17/13 04:06 AM
10/17/13 04:06 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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God wants little kids to have cancer. REALLY? Not my God! APL, do you know of anyone who believes "God wants little kids to have cancer"? I've never heard of anyone who believes it. Is it God's will that anyone have cancer: YES or NO. The implications that are being said in this thread is that it is God's will that evil exists. I would recommend reading the Desire of Ages page 58 paragraph 1.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157260
10/17/13 04:39 AM
10/17/13 04:39 AM
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SDA
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The Orient
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APL,
You've confused "pain" with "evil." You've also confused "free choice" with "evil." You see, by allowing freedom of choice, God allowed the option of choosing evil. It was not His will that this evil be chosen, but it was His will that the freedom to choose be maintained and that no creature would love and obey Him "by force." (Love cannot be forced, right?)
So, when the creatures fell down into sin and got hurt, God, as a loving Creator, stooped to help them. He poured disinfectant into the wound--causing a healing pain. The "pain" is not "evil." The pain is for healing.
In order for this sin problem to be healed, it must be fought as an evil. If I get cancer, the doctor will inflict pain upon me to try to treat or cut it out. If the doctor does not do so, for fear of causing me any discomfort, I will end up just allowing that cancer to grow bigger. The discomfort would also increase.
It's either God's pain or sin's pain. I'll take God's.
"Faithful are the wounds of a Friend; but the kisses of an Enemy are deceitful." (Proverbs 27:6)
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157261
10/17/13 05:36 AM
10/17/13 05:36 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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Amen - God wants little kids to have cancer. REALLY? Not my God! Your god must be impotent to prevent it, since it happens all the time. Your god is weak. He's not the Creator. Neither is He the Savior. If you claim otherwise, then why doesn't your god stop it? Not only did your god watch my 10 year old niece die of cancer, he also watched my 31 year old cousin die a few weeks ago. Your god is useless. A god who cannot save from cancer certainly cannot save from death. But I'm sure he is nice and friendly. He weeps as he helplessly watches sin make a mess of things. He comforts you that he doesn't want any of this to happen; it's just that he can't prevent it. Behold your god. Not only did your god not prevent your niece and cousin from dying, your god wanted them to die, it was your god's will. This is calling evil good, Isaiah 5:20. I suggest you listen to the presentations titled, "Why Did God Allow This To Happen To Me?" which can be heard HERE I'll quote Johann: Because of His great love for His universe God has to let this run its course to the end. Your god doesn't want to let sin run its course, but is powerless to do anything about it. You god wants to stop cancer, but can't do it. And if your god wants to save you from sin and death, he won't be able to do that either.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#157262
10/17/13 05:46 AM
10/17/13 05:46 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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In order for this sin problem to be healed, it must be fought as an evil. If I get cancer, the doctor will inflict pain upon me to try to treat or cut it out. If the doctor does not do so, for fear of causing me any discomfort, I will end up just allowing that cancer to grow bigger. The discomfort would also increase. Exactly. I'm reminded of a visitor in our SS class years ago. He said that God would never cause pain. We gave him the same example that you just used. He said God loves us too much to cause any pain. If he or APL ever has kids, I hope they never trip and scrape their knees. Their "loving" fathers might never cause them pain, but might leave them to a slow death by infection.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: asygo]
#157263
10/17/13 06:09 AM
10/17/13 06:09 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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It would be greater "punishment" to leave the wound untreated because the Father did not want to cause any pain, than to apply the stinging antiseptic--especially if the wound were very great. I've had gravel embedded in my hands more than once when I have taken a bad fall. Sometimes even stitches are required, and oh, how they can hurt!
Jesus certainly "hurt" upon the Cross. If God could have cured sin painlessly, why did He allow His own Son to die so agonizingly? Truly, the sin problem was a "bad fall."
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#157270
10/17/13 03:17 PM
10/17/13 03:17 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Either God is UNABLE to prevent bad things from happening, or He is UNWILLING. There are no other options.
If God is UNABLE, then we need to change His moniker to "sometimes mighty" God. "Almighty" will sound hollow. Green - consider the words of Jesus: Luke 4:23-28 RV And he said unto them, Doubtless ye will say unto me this parable, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done at Capernaum, do also here in thine own country. 24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is acceptable in his own country. 25 But of a truth I say unto you, There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when there came a great famine over all the land; 26 and unto none of them was Elijah sent, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian. 28 And they were all filled with wrath in the synagogue, as they heard these things; WHY were not more healed? Because God is impotent? Because God was unwilling? It was because He was UNABLE. WHY was He UNABLE??? So there are times when God is UNABLE to heal, but not from lack of skill or knowledge on HIS part. Because of their unbelief, the Saviour could not work many miracles among them. Only a few hearts were open to His blessing, and reluctantly He departed, never to return. {DA 241.2} So Green - there are situations where God CAN NOT prevent bad things from happening.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157271
10/17/13 03:31 PM
10/17/13 03:31 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Is it God's will that anyone have cancer: YES or NO.
Green what is your answer? asygo, what is your answer?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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