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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157272
10/17/13 03:34 PM
10/17/13 03:34 PM
asygo  Offline
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Sometimes, yes.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157273
10/17/13 03:41 PM
10/17/13 03:41 PM
asygo  Offline
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Now, a question for APL: Did God want Saul to kill all the Amalekites?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157274
10/17/13 03:56 PM
10/17/13 03:56 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
WHY were not more healed? Because God is impotent? Because God was unwilling? It was because He was UNABLE. WHY was He UNABLE???

So there are times when God is UNABLE to heal, but not from lack of skill or knowledge on HIS part.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Because of their unbelief, the Saviour could not work many miracles among them. Only a few hearts were open to His blessing, and reluctantly He departed, never to return. {DA 241.2}
So Green - there are situations where God CAN NOT prevent bad things from happening.

What you fail to distinguish is the difference between a lack of power and a lack of willingness. Do you really think that God ever lacks the power to heal? He can make donkeys speak. He can make rocks shout praises. He can make dust into a magnificent creature that reflects His glory. He can bring the dead back to life, even the unrepentant evil ones. No, God is never short on power.

But sometimes, He chooses not to heal for a higher purpose. Sometimes, that purpose is to give us a small idea of what life would be like if we disregard His ways. Sometimes, physical disease is what it takes for us to recognize our bigger problem of spiritual disease. Sometimes, what we see as a cross is a great blessing when viewed with untainted vision.

But sometimes, He will do what He wants, regardless of anyone's desires. Take His resurrection for example.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157275
10/17/13 04:11 PM
10/17/13 04:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Quote:
Did Jesus command Moses to murder?

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Did Samuel murder?

1 Samuel
15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Did Jesus murder?

Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Acts
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

MM - Did God give instructions for the Israelites to fight? Yes. Does this mean God wanted them to fight? NO. Did God give the Israelites instructions for divorce? Yes. Does this mean God wanted them to divorce? NO! Why did God give instructions for divorce? Apply your answer to the instructions for fighting. Just because there are instructions in how to deal the a given situation does not mean that this is what God wanted in the first place. The Israelites were NEVER supposed to fight, do you agree, YES or NO???

I don't understand your response to my questions. Are you suggesting:

1. Yes, Jesus command Moses to murder the Sabbath-breaker but it wasn't His will.

2. Yes, Samuel murdered King Agag but it wasn't Jesus' will.

3. Yes, Jesus murdered Nadab and Abihu and Ananias and Sapphira but it wasn't His will.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157276
10/17/13 04:32 PM
10/17/13 04:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
A: God wants little kids to have cancer. REALLY? Not my God!

M: APL, do you know of anyone who believes "God wants little kids to have cancer"? I've never heard of anyone who believes it.

A: Is it God's will that anyone have cancer: YES or NO. The implications that are being said in this thread is that it is God's will that evil exists. I would recommend reading the Desire of Ages page 58 paragraph 1.

Jesus is willing to allow the Great Controversy to play out. He works to ensure sin, evil, and righteousness unfolds according to His will. He limits what evil men and evil angels can do (without violating their freedom to choose). Jesus is willing to permit sickness, death, and destruction but He reserves the right to manage it. Nothing is left to fate, chance, or natural law. Jesus is in control - not sin, not sickness, not death, not evil men, not evil angels.

Does any of this mean "Jesus wants little kids to have cancer"? No, of course not; at least, not in the usual sense. Circumstances force Jesus to permit sad and bad things to happen. He assumes responsibility because He chose to implement the plan of salvation (otherwise none of this would happen). In so doing, He is forced to manage the outcome of the Great Controversy, which, unfortunately, includes permitting sickness, death, and destruction.

Why do you think Jesus permits sad and bad things to happen?

And, do you think Jesus can prevent it if circumstances permitted it?

What is the difference between unwilling and unable?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157279
10/17/13 05:07 PM
10/17/13 05:07 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Now, a question for APL: Did God want Saul to kill all the Amalekites?
Are you willing to take the Bible as a whole? If so, then I can say, yes, Saul was to kill (murder) all the Amalekites. Was this God perfect plan? NO. Just as divorce was God giving rules for those that insisted on adultery. Did God give the rules an "eye for eye"? Yes. Was this God perfect plan? NO. Look to Christ for the REAL truth. John 1:17 AKJV For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. What is the truth? Matthew 5:38-39 AKJV You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

The whole experience if Saul and a King for Israel was not God's perfect plan. It was a rejection of God!!! 1 Samuel 8:7 AKJV And the LORD said to Samuel, Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you: for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Israel rejected God, but God still worked with them. Yes, He gave instructions to the which were not His ideal. The mistake is not understanding this fact, making these commands as God's perfect way when it is far from it. God working with Israel, who had rejected Him, is an example of God's permissive will, then end of which will be death, if the people don't change. Confusion arises when we read permissive will as the actual (perfect) will of God. Such confusion will bring us to distorted views of God’s character. So, when God is forced to work with people that insist on functioning using their own methods and ways, He is still merciful and continues to guide them toward the best actions that can be used within their chosen systems. As they respond to His leading and fully surrender their wills to Him, He will lead them out of their own erroneous ways and choices and will redirect them toward His ways, truths, laws and principles.

When Jesus came He contrasted humanity’s principles with the principles of the kingdom of God. He took the minds of the people to a higher standard of righteousness than they had chosen to live under in the Old Testament time. His expansion on God’s ideal principles of righteousness challenged the people to live under a system where His perfect, rather than permissive, will could be understood and lived out. In actual fact, the ultimate goal of salvation must see redeemed human beings entirely cleansed of all that pertains to the ways of the carnal heart; self-rule in any particular must be rooted out at last, for anything less than God’s perfection of character and conduct leads to death, for anything not of God is sin.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157280
10/17/13 05:18 PM
10/17/13 05:18 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
WHY were not more healed? Because God is impotent? Because God was unwilling? It was because He was UNABLE. WHY was He UNABLE???

So there are times when God is UNABLE to heal, but not from lack of skill or knowledge on HIS part.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Because of their unbelief, the Saviour could not work many miracles among them. Only a few hearts were open to His blessing, and reluctantly He departed, never to return. {DA 241.2}
So Green - there are situations where God CAN NOT prevent bad things from happening.

What you fail to distinguish is the difference between a lack of power and a lack of willingness. Do you really think that God ever lacks the power to heal? He can make donkeys speak. He can make rocks shout praises. He can make dust into a magnificent creature that reflects His glory. He can bring the dead back to life, even the unrepentant evil ones. No, God is never short on power.

But sometimes, He chooses not to heal for a higher purpose. Sometimes, that purpose is to give us a small idea of what life would be like if we disregard His ways. Sometimes, physical disease is what it takes for us to recognize our bigger problem of spiritual disease. Sometimes, what we see as a cross is a great blessing when viewed with untainted vision.

But sometimes, He will do what He wants, regardless of anyone's desires. Take His resurrection for example.
I'm not confusing the lack of power or will. Green is! There are things God CAN NOT do, and that is to act unrighteously. Everything God does has to be within His law. He has given us freedom of choice, and can He force Himself on us against our will? no. Again, I suggest you read Desire of Ages page 58 paragraph 1.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157281
10/17/13 05:32 PM
10/17/13 05:32 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
Quote:
Did Jesus command Moses to murder?

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Did Samuel murder?

1 Samuel
15:32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Did Jesus murder?

Leviticus
10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Acts
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

MM - Did God give instructions for the Israelites to fight? Yes. Does this mean God wanted them to fight? NO. Did God give the Israelites instructions for divorce? Yes. Does this mean God wanted them to divorce? NO! Why did God give instructions for divorce? Apply your answer to the instructions for fighting. Just because there are instructions in how to deal the a given situation does not mean that this is what God wanted in the first place. The Israelites were NEVER supposed to fight, do you agree, YES or NO???

I don't understand your response to my questions. Are you suggesting:

1. Yes, Jesus command Moses to murder the Sabbath-breaker but it wasn't His will.

2. Yes, Samuel murdered King Agag but it wasn't Jesus' will.

3. Yes, Jesus murdered Nadab and Abihu and Ananias and Sapphira but it wasn't His will.
See my reply about permissive will above. This fits #1 and #2. #3 is different. I think I have replied multiple time here about Nadab and Abihu. That situation is the same as with God sending the fiery serpents. And we know God did not send them, right??? And a similar thing with Ananias and Sapphira. Please apply who God punishes as described in Great Controversy, page 36.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157289
10/17/13 09:32 PM
10/17/13 09:32 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Soldiers in battle are not guilty of murder. Judges are not guilty of murder when a criminal is executed.
Green has been unable to present a distinction between murder and killing.
Can you?
Or do you also say that distinction is so complex and complicated that the distinction cannot be made?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157291
10/18/13 01:42 AM
10/18/13 01:42 AM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
There are things God CAN NOT do, and that is to act unrighteously. Everything God does has to be within His law.

That takes all the risk out of the incarnation, doesn't it? Had Satan believed this, he wouldn't have wasted his time tempting Jesus.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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