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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#157402
10/20/13 05:46 AM
10/20/13 05:46 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Let's just stick to the Bible, not the words of Johann.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
I fully agree. And the worst snare are the worldly definitions of the Bible presented alsoon this forum.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Johann]
#157403
10/20/13 06:08 AM
10/20/13 06:08 AM
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Green: The definition of fight or fought depends on if you are a war monger or a child of God in each case. Take your pick.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157404
10/20/13 06:10 AM
10/20/13 06:10 AM
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SDA
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The word which you mis-define is the word "force." Where is that correctly applied? You have no understanding of this word. You do not realize how far along you've gone with your theories on account of this one thing: misunderstanding the meaning and application of the word "force" in the statements of Mrs. White which you so often quote. God does not force the will. But God does use force. God never forces the will or the conscience; but Satan's constant resort--to gain control of those whom he cannot otherwise seduce--is compulsion by cruelty. Through fear or force he endeavors to rule the conscience and to secure homage to himself. To accomplish this, he works through both religious and secular authorities, moving them to the enforcement of human laws in defiance of the law of God. {GC 591.2}
Let it be made plain that the way of God's commandments is the way of life. God has established the laws of nature, but His laws are not arbitrary exactions. Every "Thou shalt not," whether in physical or in moral law, implies a promise. If we obey it, blessing will attend our steps. God never forces us to do right, but He seeks to save us from the evil and lead us to the good. {MH 114.2}
But while we sacredly observe the Sabbath of the Lord, it is not our work to compel others to observe it. God never forces the conscience. That is Satan's work. But God is the author of the Sabbath, and it must be presented to men in contrast with the false Sabbath, that they may choose between the truth of God and the error of the enemy. {RH, February 7, 1893 par. 5}
There is no excuse for any man or woman to lose eternal life. Everyone can gain heaven, but God will not force anyone to accept the provisions He has made. God forces no one to obey. Neither does He place anyone in a position where he will be tempted above that he is able to bear. {1SAT 321.3} So God is clear about what He does NOT force. He informs us of using force in other ways, however. The peace of God will force off the withered or gnarled branches of selfishness, vanity, pride, and indolence. It is faith and practice that make up the Christian's life. We do not meet the standard of Christianity by merely professing Christ and having our names upon the church book. We should be individual workers for Christ. By personal effort we can show that we are connected with Him. {AUCR, March 17, 1913 par. 3}
The fact that unbelief prevails, that iniquity is increasing all around us, should not cause our faith to grow dim, nor our courage to waver. How was it with Enoch in his day? Was a life of holiness more easy then than it is now? Was the world more favorable to a growth in grace? Was the earth less corrupt, when God was forced to destroy its inhabitants for their heaven-defying wickedness? If we will but seek God with all our hearts, if we will work with that same determined zeal, and believe with that unyielding faith, the light of heaven will shine upon us, even as it shone upon the devoted Enoch. {RH, October 23, 1888 par. 11} God was forced to exercise force? The inhabitants of the world in Noah's day did not want to die. They were forced to. Anyone reading that story with an open mind would acknowledge the truth of this. Once the door was shut to the ark, their fate was sealed. They were given a choice. They were not given the choice of outcome after their choice was made. That outcome was God's choice, forced upon them against their will at that point. On one occasion, as the evening shadows gathered, and he laid aside his harp, he saw a dark form moving stealthily upon his flock. It was a bear, fierce with hunger, that sprang upon the sheep of his care; but David did not flee for his life. He felt that it was the very hour when his charges needed his protection. He lifted his heart to God in prayer for wisdom and help, that he might do his duty in this time of peril. With his strong arm he laid the bear in death at his feet. At another time he discovered a lion with a bleeding lamb between his jaws. Without hesitation the youthful shepherd engaged in a desperate encounter. His arm, nerved by the living God, forced the beast to release its bleeding victim, and as it turned, mad with disappointment, upon David, he buried his hand in its mane and killed the fierce invader. His experience in these matters proved the heart of David, and developed in him courage, and fortitude, and faith. God was teaching David lessons of trust. As Moses was trained for his work, so the Lord was fitting the son of Jesse to become the leader and guide of his chosen people. In his watch-care for his flocks, he was gaining an appreciation of the care that the great Shepherd has for the sheep of his pasture. {ST, August 3, 1888 par. 6} Did the beast die? by force? with God's help? That is what the prophet tells us. Did God really force one of His creatures to die? Why? That is what wisdom must teach us. These tempted souls are unable to help themselves, and avoid the ruin which threatens them; but the angels of God are forcing back the evil angels, and guiding the souls away from the dangerous places, to plant their feet on a sure foundation. No death involved here at this time, but force is certainly at play. Without force, there would be no success. Here is wisdom. "All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order." -- EGW. "Satan had asked Christ to give him evidence that He was the Son of God, and he had in this instance the proof he had asked. At the divine command of Christ, he was compelled to obey. He was repulsed and silenced. He had no power to withstand the peremptory dismissal. He was compelled without another word instantly to desist and leave the world's Redeemer." -- EGW. What's the difference? Does Christ compel or does He not? The difference is in what is being compelled. Christ never compels the conscience, the choice, the desire, or the will. But He does force the result of those choices, desires, and subsequent characters we have developed, giving to each the reward he or she has earned. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#157423
10/20/13 12:44 PM
10/20/13 12:44 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Without force, there would be no success. So it is, Love Me, or I will kill you. And you say I twist definitions. You have constantly ignored HOW God destroys. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. {GC36.1} I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {MR14 3.1} You do not understand that the only one forced into anything was God. The same situation existed on a small scale when the people rebelled, and God "sent" fiery serpents. Did God "send" them? God's Prophet tells us clearly, NO. Green - why do you not accept God's Prophet?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#157425
10/20/13 01:09 PM
10/20/13 01:09 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL,
Did God ask nicely to get Lucifer and his host of angels out of heaven, or was their departure from heaven a result of "Michael and his angels" fighting/warring against them?
If it was a war, was it force?
You see, I believe God did it in love. But love uses force at times.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#157434
10/21/13 03:11 AM
10/21/13 03:11 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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The word which you mis-define is the word "force." Right on the nose. Good study.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#157437
10/21/13 05:38 AM
10/21/13 05:38 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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APL,
Did God ask nicely to get Lucifer and his host of angels out of heaven, or was their departure from heaven a result of "Michael and his angels" fighting/warring against them?
If it was a war, was it force?
You see, I believe God did it in love. But love uses force at times.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#157455
10/22/13 03:54 PM
10/22/13 03:54 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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You see, I believe God did it in love. But love uses force at times. Oooh, oooh, another quotable greenism!
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#157456
10/22/13 03:55 PM
10/22/13 03:55 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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'Love me, or I'll kill you.'
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: kland]
#157457
10/22/13 03:57 PM
10/22/13 03:57 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Posts: 6,425
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APL, if you firmly believed that God told you to kill me,
would you?
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