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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157884
11/02/13 09:51 PM
11/02/13 09:51 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Jesus experienced both sides of torment. He experienced being given over to the torment of Satan against righteousness, AND He experienced the wrath of God against sin, EXACTLY like those who will be resurrected in the second resurrection, only billions of times more intense because He experienced it for every person with a conscience that was sensitive to sin.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157885
11/02/13 09:54 PM
11/02/13 09:54 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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APL/ Kland, I know you would see the truth of this matter if you took the time to pray about it and have patience in God showing you the truth.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157886
11/02/13 10:08 PM
11/02/13 10:08 PM
APL  Offline
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James - WHAT is God's wrath? Is it like man's wrath or Satan's wrath? YOU seeing this from the world perspective. God does not violate His own law.

Christ in dying the second death, how was the Father involved? Did the Father execute the son? NO. What killed the Son of God? SIN.

He was slain by the sin of the world. {DA 772.2}

Isaiah 53:3-4 He was despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity; and as one from whom others hide their faces he was despised, and we held him of no account. 4 Surely he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases; yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157887
11/02/13 10:08 PM
11/02/13 10:08 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Here are the two sides of torment in the second death that Jesus suffered for us...

"It was not a dread of the physical suffering he was soon to endure that brought this agony upon the Son of God. He was enduring the penalty of man’s transgression, and shuddering beneath the Father’s frown. He must not call his divinity to his aid, but, as a man, he must bear the consequences of man’s sin and the Creator’s displeasure toward his disobedient subjects. As he felt his unity with the Father broken up, he feared that his human nature would be unable to endure the coming conflict with the prince of the power of darkness; and in that case the human race would be irrecoverably lost, Satan would be victor, and the earth would be his kingdom. The sins of the world weighed heavily upon the Saviour and bowed him to the earth; and the Father’s anger in consequence of that sin seemed crushing out his life. {3SP 95.3}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157888
11/02/13 10:16 PM
11/02/13 10:16 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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JESUS WAS CARRYING THE SIN OF THE WORLD! So yes sin is what God was angry at, but since it was on the head of His Son it was Jesus who received the wrath.

Those who die the second death are receiving the wrath for their own sins because they didn't accept the sin bearer to take away their quilt. The wrath that Jesus felt is against them and it crushes out their life, this is the fires of God's righteous presence destroying them and Satan, the father of sin.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157889
11/02/13 10:20 PM
11/02/13 10:20 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
APL/ Kland, I know you would see the truth of this matter if you took the time to pray about it and have patience in God showing you the truth.
Why did the Father give His Son? To save us from the Father or from Sin? Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

Where in the life of Jesus do we see God executing sinners? Do sinners die in the end? YES. WHY? ANSWER: SIN

This is one of the major questions in the great controversy! Why do sinners die? Execution by God or the consequences of sin? The death of Christ answers the question. Had Satan experienced the natural consequences of sin in the beginning, the universe would not have understood this fact. (see PP page 42)


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157890
11/02/13 10:24 PM
11/02/13 10:24 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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"While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {DD 60.2}

God reveals Himself to the wicked and He knows this will destroy them. So for God to willingly destroy the wicked by revealing Himself to them it is an act of destruction and cleansing. This is God's strange act.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157891
11/02/13 10:32 PM
11/02/13 10:32 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Why did the Father give His Son? To save us from the Father or from Sin?


What a shameful argument. Sin caused men to die. Sin caused the wrath of God. Jesus came to free us from sin so we would not have to experience the wrath of the Father. Jesus showed us the love of the Father by coming and taking the wrath on Himself.

Jesus did come to save us from the wrath of the Father through redemption from sin, and cleansing from sin.

He doesn't want sin to ever rise again. We are fallen and have to learn to exist in the presence of righteousness. This is important.

If you say the Father had nothing to do with the death of Jesus you do not know what the Great Controversy is about.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157892
11/02/13 10:35 PM
11/02/13 10:35 PM
APL  Offline
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God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3}

God's wrath is His giving up, letting go, and it will destroy sinners in the end. Christ experienced the second death, the hiding of the Fathers face.

But bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son. The sins of the world were upon Him, also the sense of His Father's wrath as He suffered the penalty of the law transgressed. It was these that crushed His divine soul. It was the hiding of His Father's face--a sense that His own dear Father had forsaken Him--which brought despair. The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. He was oppressed by the powers of darkness. He had not one ray of light to brighten the future. {2T 214.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157893
11/02/13 10:42 PM
11/02/13 10:42 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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“I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance,” said John; “but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” Matthew 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities “by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.” The word of the Lord to Israel was, “I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin.” Isaiah 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, “our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God’s presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed “with the Spirit of His mouth,” and destroyed “with the brightness of His coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

You do not know the Great Controversy and are not being motivated by the Spirit of God APL.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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