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Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15830
10/22/05 12:26 AM
10/22/05 12:26 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
In saying that "it is vital in salvation" do you mean it is vital we understand the difference? If so, where do the Scriptures teach this, and especially where do they teach that understanding the difference is vital to salvation?
The above scriptures that MM posted point this out clearly.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15831
10/22/05 03:32 AM
10/22/05 03:32 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
The above scriptures that MM posted point this out clearly.
What is "this"?

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15832
10/23/05 01:32 AM
10/23/05 01:32 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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John, it would be nice if you would support your theory on the "spirit" with SOP quotes. From what I've read the "spirit" is nothing more or less than a synonym for either the heart or mind. I get the impression from reading your posts that you believe the “spirit” has a broader definition than what is implied by the words heart or mind.

As I see it, the will is the governing power in us. It is aggressive. It is a power. It decides how we will employ all of our other faculties of mind and body. By default, it is under the control of Satan, who influences us to develop sinful traits of character. But, we can choose to serve Jesus, and His influence helps us to exercise our willpower to develop sinless traits of character.

I am basing my definition of will and willpower on the following quotes. Do you agree with my conclusions based on these quotes?

2MCP Chap. 76 - Decision and the Will, pages 285 -287

Governing Power in Nature of Man.--The will is the governing power in the nature of man, bringing all the other faculties under its sway. The will is not the taste or the inclination, but it is the deciding power which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or unto disobedience.--5T 513 (1889). {2MCP 685.1}

Everything Depends on Its Right Action.--The tempted one needs to understand the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man-- the power of decision, of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. Desires for goodness and purity are right, as far as they go; but if we stop here, they avail nothing. Many will go down to ruin while hoping and desiring to overcome their evil propensities. They do not yield the will to God. They do not choose to serve Him.--MH 176 (1905). {2MCP 685.2}

The Spring of All Actions.--Your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. {2MCP 685.3}

But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: "Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure." When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ's character.--5T 515 (1889). {2MCP 686.1}

Man's Will Is Aggressive.--The will of man is aggressive and is constantly striving to bend all things to its purposes. If it is enlisted on the side of God and right, the fruits of the Spirit will appear in the life; and God has appointed glory, honor, and peace to every man that works good.--RH, Aug 25, 1896. (HC 153.) {2MCP 686.2}

Impossibility Lies in Own Will.--Our entire life is God's and must be used to His glory. His grace will consecrate and improve every faculty. Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character; for if you come to this decision, you will certainly fail to obtain everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, the you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of unsanctified hearts, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God.--YI, Jan 28, 1897. {2MCP 686.3}

A Grand Soother of Nerves.--The mind and nerves gain tone and strength by the exercise of the will. The power of the will in many cases will prove a potent soother of the nerves.--1T 387 (1863). {2MCP 686.4}

Satan Uses the Will.--When Satan is permitted to mold the will, he uses it to accomplish his ends....He stirs up the evil propensities, awakening unholy passions and ambitions. He says, "All this power, these honors and riches and sinful pleasures, will I give thee"; but his conditions are that integrity shall be yielded, conscience blunted. Thus he degrades the human faculties and brings them into captivity to sin.--RH, Aug 25, 1896. (HC 153.) {2MCP 686.5}

Temptation Taxes Willpower to Uttermost.--It is our privilege, as children of God, to hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering. At times the masterly power of temptation seems to tax our willpower to the uttermost, and to exercise faith seems utterly contrary to all the evidences of sense or emotion; but our will must be kept on God's side. We must believe that in Jesus Christ is everlasting strength and efficiency. . . . Hour by hour we must hold our position triumphantly in God, strong in His strength.--Lt 42, 1890. (HC 124.) {2MCP 687.1}

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15833
10/23/05 06:55 AM
10/23/05 06:55 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Thanks for the quotes, MM. I'd like to comment on this one:

quote:
The Spring of All Actions.--Your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. {2MCP 685.3}
If God had not acted in Eden, then man's will would have remained under the control of Satan. But God did act. You're probably familiar with the SOP statements regarding Gen. 3:15 (quoting from memory, I think this is right; I'm talking about the verse which states that God put enmity between the serpent and man).

So I'm questioning your conclusion that Satan has man's will be default. It seems to me that from the quotes you provided, we can conclude that Satan would have had man's will by default had God not acted, but God did act. So it seems to me that man's will is free, to choose whom he will serve. If he refuses to respond to God's spirit, then by rebelling against God he unites with Satan.

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15834
10/23/05 02:42 PM
10/23/05 02:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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quote:
So I'm questioning your conclusion that Satan has man's will be default. It seems to me that from the quotes you provided, we can conclude that Satan would have had man's will by default had God not acted, but God did act. So it seems to me that man's will is free, to choose whom he will serve. If he refuses to respond to God's spirit, then by rebelling against God he unites with Satan.

Tom, here are the quotes in their context:

GC 505
God declares: "I will put enmity." This enmity is not naturally entertained. When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin. Both became evil through apostasy. The apostate is never at rest, except as he obtains sympathy and support by inducing others to follow his example. For this reason fallen angels and wicked men unite in desperate companionship. Had not God specially interposed, Satan and man would have entered into an alliance against Heaven; and instead of cherishing enmity [which is not the same thing as having it naturally] against Satan, the whole human family would have been united in opposition to God. {GC 505.2}

5T 46, 47
Every individual, by his own act, either puts Christ from him by refusing to cherish His spirit and follow His example, or he enters into a personal union with Christ by self-renunciation, faith, and obedience. We must, each for himself, choose Christ, because He has first chosen us. This union with Christ is to be formed by those who are naturally at enmity with Him. It is a relation of utter dependence, to be entered into by a proud heart. This is close work, and many who profess to be followers of Christ know nothing of it. They nominally accept the Saviour, but not as the sole ruler of their hearts.

FW 32
The whole world is guilty in God's sight of transgressing His law. Because the great majority will continue to transgress, and thus remain at enmity with God, is no reason why none should confess themselves guilty and become obedient. {FW 32.1}

5T 515
You need to drink daily at the fountain of truth, that you may understand the secret of pleasure and joy in the Lord. But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was [not would be] at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since [from the Fall to the present] been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: "Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure." When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ's character. Is it your purpose to do God's will? Do you wish to obey the Scriptures? "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." {5T 515.1}

I like the way Morris Venden explains the will. There are three functions of the will, as he sees it:

1. We can exercise our will to experience sinless thoughts and feelings and behaviour. We lost this ability when Adam and Eve sinned and their nature became evil and Satan became the prince of this planet.

2. We can exercise our will to choose to serve God, or not to serve Him. This part of our will survived the fall of man. The enmity that God placed between humans and evil angels enables us to choose to be born again. It is this enmity that God established that motivates us to desire something better. Rebirth is the goal of the gift of enmity. It doesn't prevent us from being born, by default, under the controlling influence of Satan. When we are born again God implants within us the mind of the new man, which enables us to abide in Jesus and to partake of the divine nature, which, in turn, restores to us the ability to use our will to govern our faculties of mind and body for the purpose of reproducing the character of Christ.

3. We can exercise our will to cry out to be delivered from demon possession. While demon possessed we cannot deliver ourselves or exercise the privileges of number two described above. We can only desire to be delivered. God must work through someone else to cast out the demons. Once delivered, we can choose to serve Jesus as described in number two above. Our ability to choose to have a saving relationship with God is restored to us.

What do you think?

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15835
10/23/05 06:19 PM
10/23/05 06:19 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think our wills would have been bound by Satan had God not intervened. Because God intervened, we are free to choose our master. Christ said whoever sins is the servant of sin. Apart from the grace of God, we cannot resist the forces of evil. However, grace is given to everyone, and because of this, only those who refuse the grace of God will be overcome.

That is, God is active in the plan of salvation, and we need but *respond* to His active work. In fact, we need but cease resisting Him in order to be saved.

How do the following statements tie in with your view?

quote:
(Christ) took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God. (1 SM 343)
quote:
Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ. The cross of Calvary is stamped on every loaf. It is reflected in every water spring. (DA 660)
quote:
Jesus knows the circumstances of every soul. The greater the sinner's guilt, the more he needs the Saviour. His heart of divine love and sympathy is drawn out most of all for the one who is the most hopelessly entangled in the snares of the enemy. With His own blood He has signed the emancipation papers of the race.(MH 89,90)

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15836
10/23/05 11:39 PM
10/23/05 11:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
I think our wills would have been bound by Satan had God not intervened. Because God intervened, we are free to choose our master.

I agree. But we are not free to exercise our willpower to have holy thoughts, feelings and behaviour until we are born again. Conversion and rebirth are necessary before we can benefit from the plan of salvation, that is, as it pertains to righteousness and true holiness and salvation.

First Quote. Yes, Jesus restored the entire human race to God’s favor. But it doesn’t automatically restore to us the ability to use our willpower to be holy without the aide of rebirth and the Holy Spirit.

Second Quote. If the Godhead hadn’t immediately implemented the plan of salvation Adam and Eve would not have survived to have children. So, yes, it enables God to continue blessing us with the things needful to live long enough to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour.

Third Quote. Signing the emancipation papers is not the same as being saved. Jesus has made His grace and salvation available, but we must choose to accept Him as our personal Saviour before anything He accomplished for us can result in our rebirth and salvation.

Do you agree we are naturally at enmity with Jesus? And that we must be born again before God can restore to us the ability to use our willpower to obey Him?

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15837
10/24/05 12:02 AM
10/24/05 12:02 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think that apart from divine grace we cannot overcome sin. I agree that we must be born again. However, the Holy Spirit is constantly leading us to repentance, so that the one way we can remain un-born again, so to speak, is to resist the grace of God which is leading us to repentance.

The important thing to notice is that:
1)God is taking the initiative to save everyone.
2)The only way anyone can be lost is to actively refuse the grace of God.

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15838
10/25/05 03:55 AM
10/25/05 03:55 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Amen!

DA 489, 490
The True Witness says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock." Rev. 3:20. Every warning, reproof, and entreaty in the word of God or through His messengers is a knock at the door of the heart. It is the voice of Jesus asking for entrance. With every knock unheeded, the disposition to open becomes weaker. The impressions of the Holy Spirit if disregarded today, will not be as strong tomorrow. The heart becomes less impressible, and lapses into a perilous unconsciousness of the shortness of life, and of the great eternity beyond. Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}

However, you did not directly respond to my thoughts regarding willpower and behaviour and enmity. What do you think?

Re: Does Romans 7 describe a believer sinning? #15839
10/24/05 10:29 PM
10/24/05 10:29 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think we cannot exercise our will to serve God apart from the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is constantly with us, so in practical terms anyone who wanted to serve God would be able to, because the Holy Spirit would provided the needed help as necessary. Similar comments apply for behavior.

Regarding enmity, the enmity is only one way, from us to God, because on the other end God so loved the world that He gave us His Son. Sin causes us to view God in a way He is not, which leads us to consider Him as our enemy, as well as causing us to act as His enemy. Our misconception remains until we see the truth in Christ. Col. 1:18-20 talks about this. Once we see the truth, if we accept it, reconciliation occurs.

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