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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158410
11/17/13 11:53 AM
11/17/13 11:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Brazil
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Who said that the text means Christ was made to be sin at His birth? I understand it to mean He was made to be sin on the cross. Show me this from scripture or EGW. 1Pe 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the treeThe fact still remains, that he bore our sins "in His body". Christ bore our sins "in His body" in the sense that He had to die for our sins, and obviously could only die in the body (divinity did not die). Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. The verb ginomai should naturally be understood in its sense of "come into existence." Hebrews 2:17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17 means just that, to be a high priest, Christ must become human. Nothing more, nothing less. There is "sin" and there are "sins". "sins" is the behavior. "Sin" is the disease. Christ bore ouf "sin", but never committed any "sins", he was spotless. EGW puts it this way, "By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin." Notice the word structure. You are demolishing your own thesis. The Bible says that Christ bore our sins (plural) in HIs body, and EGW says that Christ did not participate in human nature's sin (singular).
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#158411
11/17/13 12:10 PM
11/17/13 12:10 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Posts: 7,003
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An interesting sentence I came across in my morning reading concerned Jesus' character and His resistance of Satan's temptations. He who could take up the Son of God, who was made a little lower than the angels, and place Him upon a pinnacle of the temple, and take Him up into an exceeding high mountain to present before Him the kingdoms of the world, can exercise his power upon the human family, who are far inferior in strength and wisdom to the Son of God, even after He had taken upon Himself man's nature. {1T 298.2} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#158414
11/17/13 01:37 PM
11/17/13 01:37 PM
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SDA
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Who said that the text means Christ was made to be sin at His birth? I understand it to mean He was made to be sin on the cross. Show me this from scripture or EGW. 1Pe 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the treeThe fact still remains, that he bore our sins "in His body". Christ bore our sins "in His body" in the sense that He had to die for our sins, and obviously could only die in the body (divinity did not die). Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. The verb ginomai should naturally be understood in its sense of "come into existence." Hebrews 2:17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17 means just that, to be a high priest, Christ must become human. Nothing more, nothing less. There is "sin" and there are "sins". "sins" is the behavior. "Sin" is the disease. Christ bore ouf "sin", but never committed any "sins", he was spotless. EGW puts it this way, "By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin." Notice the word structure. You are demolishing your own thesis. The Bible says that Christ bore our sins (plural) in HIs body, and EGW says that Christ did not participate in human nature's sin (singular). Yes, there are many sins. My comment was to EGW's statement. The fact remains - in His body. You want to change this to mean, He bore the penalty for our sins in His body, but that is adding words that are not there in 1 Peter 2:24. It is true, He died for our sins. It was more. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. He had our same sickness, but never as EGW says, participated in it.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158419
11/17/13 03:28 PM
11/17/13 03:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Brazil
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The fact remains - in His body. You want to change this to mean, He bore the penalty for our sins in His body, but that is adding words that are not there in 1 Peter 2:24. That's how EGW interprets it too: Hating sin with a perfect hatred, He yet gathered to His soul the sins of the whole world. Guiltless, He bore the punishment of the guilty. Innocent, yet offering Himself as a substitute for the transgressor. The guilt of every sin pressed its weight upon the divine soul of the world's Redeemer. The evil thoughts, the evil words, the evil deeds of every son and daughter of Adam, called for retribution upon Himself; for He had become man's substitute. Though the guilt of sin was not His, His spirit was torn and bruised by the transgressions of men, and He who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. {AG 172.3} Christ bore the penalty of sin, the stroke of divine justice, that human beings might not be left to perish. He bore in His body the sentence pronounced against sinners. This is the science of salvation, which can safely be searched into, and which it is profitable to strive to understand. . . . {OFC 270.5} He who was the brightness of the Father’s glory, the express image of His person, bore our sins in His own body on the tree, suffering the penalty of man’s transgression until justice was satisfied and required no more. {OFC 116.6} And, again, 1 Peter 2:24 says Christ bore our sins in His own body on the tree - it is referring to something which happened on the cross, not at birth.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158421
11/17/13 04:04 PM
11/17/13 04:04 PM
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M: APL, it seems like you believe:
1. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.
2. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.
3. Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because Moses mistakenly believed killing is right.
A: If you want to know the real character of the God of the OT, then look at Jesus. If your picture does not fit Jesus, then there is something wrong with your picture. During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus: 1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc? 2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc? 3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158422
11/17/13 04:08 PM
11/17/13 04:08 PM
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Jesus bore the sins of the world in His body from the cradle to the cross: As one with us, He must bear the burden of our guilt and woe. The Sinless One must feel the shame of sin. . . {DA 111.4}
. . . With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. {DA 116.4}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158423
11/17/13 04:11 PM
11/17/13 04:11 PM
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APL, I am moving this up for your convenience: APL, as you requested: A: Jesus said: Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelled in Jerusalem? What happened MM? Did Jesus fall asleep and forget to hold up the tower?
M: No.
A: What you are saying had interesting implications for free will.
M: People are free to choose. So is Jesus. He can choose to manage the consequences of our choices.
A: You also assume that the present state of the earth is exactly as God would have it.
M: Of course He never wanted sin to happen in the first place. But He permitted it. And He is allowing the great controversy to play out according to His plan and purpose.
A: Therefore, if a rock fall off a mountain and kills you, it must be God's will.
M: Jesus is willing to allow such things to happen.
A: In the Lord's prayer, one of the things to pray for is that God's will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Why is that? It is because God's will is NOT being done on earth as it is in Heaven.
M: Jesus knows everything we need.
A: The idea that evil angels can make nature do disasters is unbiblical? That statement is unbiblical. Have you read the book of Job? Where did the great wind come that killed Job's children. I suppose you believe that the "fire of God" was fire sent by God. Evil angels did not cause any of this as you say, but the Bible record speaks differently.
M: Evil angels cannot empower, enable nature to act. They can only do with it as Jesus permits.
A: "The fact sinners sin with impunity is evidence sin cannot punish or kill sinners". Mike - this is very naive statement on sin. Speaking of the apostasy at Peor in Patriarchs and Prophets, chapter 41, EGW writes about sex sins, "Nature has affixed terrible penalties to these crimes--penalties which, sooner or later, will be inflicted upon every transgressor. It is these sins more than any other that have caused the fearful degeneracy of our race, and the weight of disease and misery with which the world is cursed. Men may succeed in concealing their transgression from their fellow men, but they will no less surely reap the result, in suffering, disease, imbecility, or death." Is it God that inflicts the penalties, or is it sin itself that causes the disease, misery, degeneracy, imbecility and death? SIN.
M: Sinning can result in sickness, injury, death. But this is not the penalty. Second death in the lake of fire is the penalty.
A: I think you picture sin as a legal problem, a breaking of the rules. Perhaps you should listen to the lecture series titled, "The Science of Sin and Salvation", on going weekly now. The past presentations are available online. The link has been posted here on the forums. The videos are here:
M: Sinning is a real problem as well as a legal one.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#158424
11/17/13 04:18 PM
11/17/13 04:18 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The fact remains - in His body. You want to change this to mean, He bore the penalty for our sins in His body, but that is adding words that are not there in 1 Peter 2:24. That's how EGW interprets it too: Hating sin with a perfect hatred, He yet gathered to His soul the sins of the whole world. Guiltless, He bore the punishment of the guilty. Innocent, yet offering Himself as a substitute for the transgressor. The guilt of every sin pressed its weight upon the divine soul of the world's Redeemer. The evil thoughts, the evil words, the evil deeds of every son and daughter of Adam, called for retribution upon Himself; for He had become man's substitute. Though the guilt of sin was not His, His spirit was torn and bruised by the transgressions of men, and He who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. {AG 172.3} Christ bore the penalty of sin, the stroke of divine justice, that human beings might not be left to perish. He bore in His body the sentence pronounced against sinners. This is the science of salvation, which can safely be searched into, and which it is profitable to strive to understand. . . . {OFC 270.5} He who was the brightness of the Father’s glory, the express image of His person, bore our sins in His own body on the tree, suffering the penalty of man’s transgression until justice was satisfied and required no more. {OFC 116.6} And, again, 1 Peter 2:24 says Christ bore our sins in His own body on the tree - it is referring to something which happened on the cross, not at birth. What then, did Christ overcome? He had nothing to overcome? And before His crucifixion, He said, "I have finished the work you have sent me to do". If sin were just a legal problem, then Christ dying is enough. He could have died as an infant! Consider the words of another writer from EGW's time: Do not forget, either, that the mystery of God is not God manifest in sinless flesh, but God manifest in sinful flesh. There could never be any mystery about God's manifesting himself in sinless flesh—in one who had no connection whatever with sin. That would be plain enough. But that he can manifest himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery. Yea, it is the mystery of God. And it is a glorious fact, thank the Lord! Believe it. And before all the world, and for the joy of every person in the world, in Jesus Christ he has demonstrated that this great mystery is indeed a fact in human experience. For "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." And therefore God "made him to be sin for us." "He hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Thus, in our flesh, having our nature, laden with iniquity, and himself made to be sin, Christ Jesus lived in this world, tempted in all points like as we are; and yet God always caused him to triumph in him, and made manifest the savor of his knowledge by him in every place. Thus God was manifest in the flesh,—in our flesh, in human flesh laden with sin,—and made to be sin in itself, weak and tempted as ours is. And thus the mystery of God was made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. O, believe it! {September 29, 1896 ATJ, ARSH 621.7}
And this is the mystery of God to-day and forever—God manifest in the flesh, in human flesh, in flesh, laden with sin, tempted and tried. In this flesh, God will make manifest the knowledge of himself in every place where the believer is found. Believe it, and praise his holy name! {September 29, 1896 ATJ, ARSH 621.8} Is this writer speaking of just the cross? Nope.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158427
11/17/13 05:00 PM
11/17/13 05:00 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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M: APL, it seems like you believe:
1. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.
2. Jesus punishes sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc.
3. Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because Moses mistakenly believed killing is right.
A: If you want to know the real character of the God of the OT, then look at Jesus. If your picture does not fit Jesus, then there is something wrong with your picture. During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus: 1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc? 2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc? 3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right? In the life of Christ on this earth, what do we learn about how He treated His enemies? In His life on earth, what do we learn of how He treated sinners? What was the role of the Jewish people in the Old Testament? They were to reveal God's character to the world. Did they fulfill that role? NO. The whole story of the Old Testament is full of apostasy, with a few glimmering examples of faithfulness. Over and over in the OT, we read about how God did this and that for destruction. Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New. Deuteronomy 31:17-18 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come on us, because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have worked, in that they are turned to other gods. God is not the causative agent. The lack of God is the causative agent. Paul understood the meaning of the wrath of God. Read Romans 1. We do learn of what happens when Christ withdraws His protection as foretold by Christ on the destruction of Jerusalem. God was not the causative agent in its destruction. When their cup of iniquity was full, God gave them up.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158429
11/17/13 05:12 PM
11/17/13 05:12 PM
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SDA
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M: During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus:
1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?
2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?
3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right?
A: In the life of Christ on this earth, what do we learn about how He treated His enemies? In His life on earth, what do we learn of how He treated sinners? What was the role of the Jewish people in the Old Testament? They were to reveal God's character to the world. Did they fulfill that role? NO. The whole story of the Old Testament is full of apostasy, with a few glimmering examples of faithfulness. Over and over in the OT, we read about how God did this and that for destruction. Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New. Deuteronomy 31:17-18 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come on us, because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have worked, in that they are turned to other gods. God is not the causative agent. The lack of God is the causative agent. Paul understood the meaning of the wrath of God. Read Romans 1. We do learn of what happens when Christ withdraws His protection as foretold by Christ on the destruction of Jerusalem. God was not the causative agent in its destruction. When their cup of iniquity was full, God gave them up. You wrote, "Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New." When "Christ withdraws His protection" destruction happens. During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus: 1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc? 2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc? 3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right?
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