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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158431
11/17/13 04:20 PM
11/17/13 04:20 PM
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Brazil
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What then, did Christ overcome? He had nothing to overcome? And before His crucifixion, He said, "I have finished the work you have sent me to do". If sin were just a legal problem, then Christ dying is enough. He could have died as an infant! The legal problem involves two aspects. Although Adam enjoyed God’s favor because he had no sin, yet he was to obey, if he would enjoy eternal life. Thus he must have: 1) not only a negative righteousness - he was not guilty of anything; but also 2) a positive righteousness - he must obey that he might inherit eternal life When he sinned, 1) he became guilty of transgression, forfeited God’s favor and became subject to the penalty 2) he failed to obey positively, failed to overcome the devil, and thus forfeited eternal life. Therefore, in the covenant of grace, the representative of humanity, the second Adam, must 1) by satisfying the penalty, clear the slate and reinstate us in God’s favor _ Adam’s original condition. (This is called Christ’s passive obedience.) 2) accomplish the probationary assignment of overcoming the devil and presenting a perfect obedience, earning for us eternal life _ God’s promised reward. (This is called Christ’s active obedience.)
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158434
11/17/13 04:33 PM
11/17/13 04:33 PM
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But that he can manifest himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery. This is not a mystery - this is a mistake. Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. ... He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. {5BC 1128.4} Jones says exactly the opposite of what Ellen White says. Yet people perfer uninspired words over inspired words.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#158436
11/17/13 04:39 PM
11/17/13 04:39 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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What then, did Christ overcome? He had nothing to overcome? And before His crucifixion, He said, "I have finished the work you have sent me to do". If sin were just a legal problem, then Christ dying is enough. He could have died as an infant! The legal problem involves two aspects. Although Adam enjoyed God’s favor because he had no sin, yet he was to obey, if he would enjoy eternal life. Thus he must have: 1) not only a negative righteousness - he was not guilty of anything; but also 2) a positive righteousness - he must obey that he might inherit eternal life When he sinned, 1) he became guilty of transgression, forfeited God’s favor and became subject to the penalty 2) he failed to obey positively, failed to overcome the devil, and thus forfeited eternal life. Therefore, in the covenant of grace, the representative of humanity, the second Adam, must 1) by satisfying the penalty, clear the slate and reinstate us in God’s favor _ Adam’s original condition. (This is called Christ’s passive obedience.) 2) accomplish the probationary assignment of overcoming the devil and presenting a perfect obedience, earning for us eternal life _ God’s promised reward. (This is called Christ’s active obedience.) Why make it so convoluted? "Adam had God's favor because he had no sin, yet he was to obey". Ah - sin is not obeying. One is not "guilty" because he is obeying. The only solution is bring sinful man back to the point of obeying, no longer sinful. This is not a legal problem Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. When we get to heaven, do you think we will forget our past? No. When David and Bathsheba meet Uriah, and then comes along Solomon and says, "Hi Mon, Hi Dad", do you think Uriah will not have some questions? But will it matter as long as all are now doers of the law? It won't matter. A different example, suppose as was reported in the news recently that a 20 year old Mexican man was accused of being involved in 79 murders. Knowing that Christ died for him, will that make you comfortable to have him around your family members? It make not one wit difference that "someone" died in his place, if he is not a changed person. The only question that is relevant is whether that 20 year old murder is still the same person, will he have the propensity to kill again or is he now safe to be around because he is "born again". Nothing legal about that.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Rosangela]
#158438
11/17/13 04:48 PM
11/17/13 04:48 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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But that he can manifest himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery. This is not a mystery - this is a mistake. Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. ... He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. {5BC 1128.4} Jones says exactly the opposite of what Ellen White says. Yet people perfer uninspired words over inspired words. So I ask again - what did Christ overcome? From your viewpoint, certainly nothing that we need to overcome. Is sin hereditary or not? I assume you would say it is not.
Last edited by APL; 11/17/13 04:52 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158441
11/17/13 06:44 PM
11/17/13 06:44 PM
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M: During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus:
1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?
2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc?
3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right?
A: In the life of Christ on this earth, what do we learn about how He treated His enemies? In His life on earth, what do we learn of how He treated sinners? What was the role of the Jewish people in the Old Testament? They were to reveal God's character to the world. Did they fulfill that role? NO. The whole story of the Old Testament is full of apostasy, with a few glimmering examples of faithfulness. Over and over in the OT, we read about how God did this and that for destruction. Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New. Deuteronomy 31:17-18 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come on us, because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have worked, in that they are turned to other gods. God is not the causative agent. The lack of God is the causative agent. Paul understood the meaning of the wrath of God. Read Romans 1. We do learn of what happens when Christ withdraws His protection as foretold by Christ on the destruction of Jerusalem. God was not the causative agent in its destruction. When their cup of iniquity was full, God gave them up. You wrote, "Over and over we see that the character of the God that worked with the Israelites was like the Christ in the New." When "Christ withdraws His protection" destruction happens. During His 33 year sojourn on Earth when did Jesus: 1. Punish sinners by withdrawing His retraining hand and allowing nature to act in and of itself resulting in viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc? 2. Punish sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting evil angels to employ nature as a weapon causing viruses, diseases, epidemics, earthquakes, fires, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, volcanic eruptions, sink holes, etc? 3. Command someone like Moses to stone sinners to death and to wage war killing enemy combatants because they mistakenly believed killing is right? PS - Obviously Jesus did none of the things in the NT you believe He did in the OT (referring to the 3 summaries listed above). And yet you insist we must define the Jesus of the OT by the Jesus of the NT. There is a disconnect here.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158442
11/17/13 06:46 PM
11/17/13 06:46 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
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APL and Rosangela, you guys might want to discuss the sinful flesh nature of Jesus elsewhere.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158447
11/17/13 07:33 PM
11/17/13 07:33 PM
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APL and Rosangela, you guys might want to discuss the sinful flesh nature of Jesus elsewhere. Or not.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#158448
11/17/13 07:37 PM
11/17/13 07:37 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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PS - Obviously Jesus did none of the things in the NT you believe He did in the OT (referring to the 3 summaries listed above). And yet you insist we must define the Jesus of the OT by the Jesus of the NT. There is a disconnect here. Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 5:36-38 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father has sent me.37 And the Father himself, which has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he has sent, him you believe not.You are right - there is a disconnect.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2)
[Re: APL]
#158449
11/17/13 08:33 PM
11/17/13 08:33 PM
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5500+ Member
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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So I ask again - what did Christ overcome? From your viewpoint, certainly nothing that we need to overcome. The essence of temptation is the same, whether for Jesus, for Adam and Eve before sin, or for us. And the superior the character, the stronger the temptation. " The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us. {DA 116.4} Is sin hereditary or not? I assume you would say it is not. It is, but don't forget that at conception, a person receives DNA from both the father and mother. The only question that is relevant is whether that 20 year old murder is still the same person, will he have the propensity to kill again or is he now safe to be around because he is "born again". Nothing legal about that. Mike is right. This is off-topic. So I’ll just prolong the discussion for one more post. Is it your contention that the new birth changes the DNA?
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