In some accounts of the Testimonies the Holy Spirit is said to do a given task, in other accounts the Holy angels are given the credit, which one is correct? Are they in opposiostion to each other, or could it be proven that both statements are correct? That both the angels and the Holy Spirit accomplished the end. The Holy Spirit through heavenly angels do the will of the Father after Jesus lovingly commands it in the name of the Father. A line of command embued with the power of the one who sent them.

There is a similar seeming paradox in the destruction of the wicked. In the destruction of the wicked we find as many statements that God has in the past destroyed the wicked through his holy angels or men or catastrophic events and will rain fire on them, as we do that He is not to be presented as an executioner. Which one is correct? They both are.

When there is such a seeming paradox in the record about the Character of God it is very important to acknowledge that we may never know all the variables of the mystery, but our devotion to God, to know Him, if motivated by the Spirit of truth should make us very reluctant to try to discount any of His word to prove our point.

APL seems to think that because the end of the wicked is destruction, God could never even be part of the event because He is creative not destructive. But what he presents dicounts the "strange act" and tries to erace this from scripture. There are a few writings in the testimonies that seem to support his stand but they can as easilly be explained in light of the plain statements of scripture that contradicts what he is saying.

But what does APL do with the hundreds of statements in scripture and the Testimonies that plainly state that God sent an angel or men to kill, or that He breaths fire on the wicked for their final destruction? There is a ballance that he seems predjudice against.

Also; After his fall Satan and his angels were already in the abyss where nothing of God exists. They were "cut off" from the presence of the source of life, God on His throne, and from the tree of life, but not extinguished themselves. The only access they had to light was at the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil where satan manifested to Eve as a serpent. They were let out of their prison and were permitted to come here. Demons are terrified of the abyss and would rather be put in the body of pigs than go there again, especially before their "time" because they can see what scripture says.

Before he fell from heaven Lucifer had time to repent like we do, but after being cast out of heaven he had already passed his probation. Is God with men who are past their probation? Only by allowing the rain to fall and sun to light their world, but not in support.

It is recorded in the book that Satan was fully cast out of heaven since the death of Christ on the cross, that there is no more contact from God. No more counsels he could be privy to. At the execution of the Son of God that was it. He receives no more support of any kind from any source other than his own minion.

I fully agree that Satan has destroyed himself and his followers, and everything they accomplish to the end of their own destruction is as a result of sin. All of the mystery of sin is manifested in the life of Satan.

But Satan dwells here though, so God could not destroy him without destroying us also and He wants to save as many of us as possible. God is allowing the contraversy to prove without a shadow of a doubt that sin destroys and God cannot allow it to survive so He interveigns and delivers us from it's grip. Jesus had to come as a baby, subject to His own creation, to come to the devils territory to expose him, to take back what Satan had usurped.

God does not destroy Satan until the whole universe proclaims his guilt after the books have been examined. The strange act is God's portion but it is none-the-less an act of God, so APL should be as careful about discounting God's word on the matter as he says we should be about attributing to God destructive atributes.

jsot - QUOTE - EGW: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". {GC 36.1} What is the sentence against transgression? The second death. Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1} Like Israel of old, the wicked - destroy themselves.

Yes, sin is a systemic problem. No doubt about it. Now, please answer the questions with this definition in mind. Thank you.

APL,

1. Why didn't Eve die the instant she sinned?
2. Why didn't Adam die the instant he sinned?
3. What is preventing evil angels from dying?


4. Please explain "or else Adam could not have sinned".
5. Please explain "death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor".

So, God has something to do with Satan's continuing suffering. And those who separate from Him don't necessarily die, unless He wants them to. And I thought you were saying God has nothing to do with suffering and death.

"There is a divinely appointed connection between sin and disease."

Yes, God has something to do with it; things don't just happen.

APL says that Jesus did not die in Gethsemane, I beg to differ.



"Angels beheld the Saviour’s agony. They saw their Lord enclosed by legions of satanic forces, His nature weighed down with a shuddering, mysterious dread. There was silence in heaven. No harp was touched. Could mortals have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {CSA 33.7}
The worlds unfallen and the heavenly angels had watched with intense interest as the conflict drew to its close.... {CSA 33.8} Christ’s agony did not cease, but His depression and discouragement left Him. The storm had in nowise abated, but He who was its object was strengthened to meet its fury. He came forth calm and serene. A heavenly peace rested upon His bloodstained face. He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the sufferings of death for every man.... {CSA 33.9}

The point is that there are two parts to the second death. Jesus in Gethsemane tasted THE death that every man will suffer in the second resurrection. He fell to the ground dying from the anguish but the angel came and resussitated and strengthened him, then he died physically on the cross.

The first thing Peter quoted when under the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was the book of Joel, saying the Spirit of Prophecy was upon him in his address to the people of every tongue, then he quoted David;

"Peter did not refer to the teachings of Christ to prove his position, because he knew that the prejudice of his hearers was so great that his words on this subject would be of no effect. Instead, he spoke to them of David, who was regarded by the Jews as one of the patriarchs of their nation. “David speaketh concerning Him,” he declared: “I foresaw the Lord always before My face, for He is on My right hand, that I should not be moved: therefore did My heart rejoice, and My tongue was glad; moreover also My flesh shall rest in hope: because Thou wilt not leave My soul in hell, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.... {AA 41.3}
“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.” “He ... spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.” {AA 42.1}

God would not leave the soul of Jesus in Hades, the place of the spiritually dead, the second death, nor would the Father allow the body of Jesus to see corruption in the grave. TWO distinct phases to the death of Christ foretold by David and addressed in the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Makes sense this would also be a part of the Latter rain message.

There are two phases to the death of the wicked. Jesus suffered them both.

And yes the wicked are destroyed by the Father revealing Himself, but there is a conscious act of cleansing in the revelation of the Father.

The righteous have been prepared for the revelation of the Father when the fire falls from heaven to cleanse the earth, the wicked have not, so for the Father to reveal Himself he knows this will destroy the wicked. The curse is pronounced and then the fire from the presence of the Father destroys the wicked, an act of cleansing. His strange act.

He knows it will destroy the wicked to reveal Himself, but this must be done to assure that sin will never arise again.

So how is this not a determined act of the Father?

james - the Spirit of Prophesy says: "God destroys no man." {COL 84.4}

The Spirit of Prophesy says: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression". {GC 36.1} What is the sentence against transgression? The second death. Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}

Don't reject the Spirit of Prophesy.

Yes it says God destroys no man, and it also says He breaths fire on the wicked, which one is true?

They both are.

It is not God's fault that anyone parish. He has done everything He could to prevent that. It is most definetely the fault of the wicked that they are destroyed. But even those who never had the chance to reject God, kept in slavery, will be destroyed. They disappear as if they never were born.



There is a predetermined pattern of the destruction of the wicked, foretold and prophesied about by God, which they brought upon themselves.