The descriptions of the church can be seen in different ways, one way being as spiritual descriptions. Viewed as such, I think your observation applies. Similarly the descriptions given by the other churches may also apply to our time to individuals, or even in a general way to the church. For example, we as an individual or church may be guilty of having left our first love.

My understanding of the victory of Christ is that He did that which we could not do. The law was weak through the flesh, so God sent His Son in our flesh to make it possible for His law to be obeyed in human flesh.

So we have: aaaaaaaaaaa (flesh which cannot obey)
and: bbbbbbbbbbb (flesh which can obey)

"b" only became possible because of Christ. Only to the extent that Christ actually had "a" could He provide the victory to have "b".

In other words, if we are tempted in some way that Christ was not tempted, then we could not have victory on that point, because that point would not have been "fixed".

For example, if Christ was tempted only on the basis of "correct impulses" (easy temptations) and we are tempted on the basis of "correct temptations" (easy temptations) and "incorrect impulses" (the hard ones), then did Christ fix the tempted by incorrect impulses part? I understand that I can have victory over the incorrect impulses temptations (the hard ones) because Christ Himself overcame the very temptations I had (the hard ones).

Otherwise I would be doing something Christ couldn't, or didn't, do. Where would I have obtained the ability to do something beyond what Christ did?

Hoping this makes some sense,

Tom

[ September 29, 2005, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Tom Ewall ]

Tom,

Who said that being tempted on the basis of correct impulses are easy temptations? There is no difference in the strength of the temptation, but just in the perspective of the temptation. Let’s take, for instance, faith. There are people who are prone to doubt, so Satan will arrange his temptations in such a way as to confirm the person in his doubts. If the person has faith, he will arrange his temptations so as to make the person fall from his faith.

Take, for instance, the aspect of faith in the first temptation of Jesus:

“Though he appears as an angel of light, these first words betray his character. ‘If Thou be the Son of God.’ Here is the insinuation of distrust. Should Jesus do what Satan suggests, it would be an acceptance of the doubt. ... The words rankle with bitterness in his mind. In the tones of his voice is an expression of utter incredulity. Would God treat His own Son thus? Would He leave Him in the desert with wild beasts, without food, without companions, without comfort? He insinuates that God never meant His Son to be in such a state as this. ‘If Thou be the Son of God,’ show Thy power by relieving Thyself of this pressing hunger. Command that this stone be made bread. The words from heaven, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased’ (Matt. 3:17), were still sounding in the ears of Satan. But he was determined to make Christ disbelieve this testimony. ... It was Satan's purpose to cause Him to doubt that word. If Christ's confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that the victory in the whole controversy would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father, and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken” (DA 118, 119).

Is this an easy temptation? Only in the sense that it is easy to fall into it.

Take another aspect of the first temptation, for instance. His temptation for Christ was, “If Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." He wouldn’t of course tempt us to do that. His temptation for us would probably be, “Curse God, and die!” Which temptation is easier to fall into?

The devil is extremely clever, Tom. There are no temptations easy to overcome. There are only temptations easy to fall into.

As I mentioned earlier, there is no difference in temptation, for fallen or unfallen beings:

"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us. {DA 116, 117}

R:Who said that being tempted on the basis of correct impulses are easy temptations?

Tom:I did, based on personal experience. I have found the temptations to do something I like to do are more difficult to meet than temptations to do things I dislike. I have also noticed that things I like to do are not necessarily things that issue from "correct impulses" (I'm being charitable to myself here -- I don't know if they ever come from "correct impulses").

R:There is no difference in the strength of the temptation, but just in the perspective of the temptation.
Let’s take, for instance, faith. There are people who are prone to doubt, so Satan will arrange his temptations in such a way as to confirm the person in his doubts. If the person has faith, he will arrange his temptations so as to make the person fall from his faith.

Take, for instance, the aspect of faith in the first temptation of Jesus:

“Though he appears as an angel of light, these first words betray his character. ‘If Thou be the Son of God.’ Here is the insinuation of distrust. Should Jesus do what Satan suggests, it would be an acceptance of the doubt. ... The words rankle with bitterness in his mind. In the tones of his voice is an expression of utter incredulity. Would God treat His own Son thus? Would He leave Him in the desert with wild beasts, without food, without companions, without comfort? He insinuates that God never meant His Son to be in such a state as this. ‘If Thou be the Son of God,’ show Thy power by relieving Thyself of this pressing hunger. Command that this stone be made bread. The words from heaven, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased’ (Matt. 3:17), were still sounding in the ears of Satan. But he was determined to make Christ disbelieve this testimony. ... It was Satan's purpose to cause Him to doubt that word. If Christ's confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that the victory in the whole controversy would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father, and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken” (DA 118, 119).

Is this an easy temptation? Only in the sense that it is easy to fall into it.

Tom:The temptation was difficult because Christ took our nature and took our sin, which is my point. If Christ had not taken our nature or our sin, there would have been no temptation at all. The temptation was difficult for Him because of our baggage which He assumed. The same baggage which makes our temptations difficult made His difficult.

R:Take another aspect of the first temptation, for instance. His temptation for Christ was, “If Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." He wouldn’t of course tempt us to do that. His temptation for us would probably be, “Curse God, and die!” Which temptation is easier to fall into?

Tom:Just an aside, Satan also tempted Christ with "Curse God, and die!" especially on the cross. There's no temptation which we have that Christ didn't meet. If He didn't meet it and overcome it, we would have no hope in victory. We can do nothing He hasn't done.

R:The devil is extremely clever, Tom. There are no temptations easy to overcome. There are only temptations easy to fall into.

Tom:To use your definition, some temptations are easier to fall into than others. In particular, the easiest temptations for us to fall into are those we have already fallen into so many times. There has to be a mechanism by which we can avoid falling into these temptations. I believe our victory over these easy-to-fall-into temptations was provided by Jesus Christ. I would emphasize that these temptations had to be just as easy for Christ to fall into as us, or if not He was not tempted in all points as we are.

R:As I mentioned earlier, there is no difference in temptation, for fallen or unfallen beings:

"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. These were the temptations that overcame Adam and Eve, and that so readily overcome us. {DA 116, 117}

Tom:There's a *huge* difference. The difference is that unfallen beings have never sinned and do not have sinful natures. The reason the temptations were difficult for Christ was because He took our nature and our sin upon Him.

I think you guys are not understanding what I’m saying. Instead of trying to reply point by point to what you said, I’m going to make a last attempt to explain what I mean.

Natural inclinations/impulses are the inclinations that every human being possesses because God implanted them in us. These are softened and controlled at conversion. Of course they can’t be eliminated.

For instance, no human being wants to suffer, no human being wants to die, no human being wants to be humiliated, scorned, reproached, and all human beings will do everything possible to avoid this. All human beings can be tempted on the point of physical appetites – food, water, sex. The faith of every human being can be taxed, for we don’t see God and on many occasions it does seem He has abandoned us; the patience of every human being can be taxed (because anger is an impulse God implanted in us). All human beings can be tempted to be selfishly ambitious (because ambition is an impulse God implanted in us). So, all these impulses cannot and will not be removed; they can only be controlled by a will which must be itself under the control of God. They are part of our human condition.

“The human will of Christ would not have led him to the wilderness of temptation, to fast, and to be tempted of the devil. It would not have led him to endure humiliation, scorn, reproach, suffering, and death. His human nature shrank from all these things as decidedly as ours shrinks from them.” {ST, October 29, 1894 par. 9}

But what about evil impulses? What is an evil impulse? It is an imbalance in, or perversion of, a correct impulse, which makes you more susceptible to some kinds of temptation. After your conversion, when you ask God, He will gradually correct, according to your consent and will, the imbalance in that impulse, bringing it back to balance. And again, these impulses are in the mind, not in the body (the impulses that are in the body, which were implanted by God, cannot be removed, as I said, but just controlled).

I will ask your permission to illustrate this with a personal example. I was baptized at 16, however I joined the church convinced but not converted, and I was painfully aware of that. I spent 6 years in church trying to find God. During this time, I became painfully aware of my sins and of the weak points in my character, but I could do nothing about it; I was under the control of inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil, and my life was a life of defeat (Romans 7). To cut a long story short, one day, after six years, I found God, and believed His love for me personally. I was converted, justified, born again.

Just a few days after this, I involuntarily told a small lie. This was a problem that had been disturbing me for many years. I involuntarily told small lies and couldn’t control it, because it was an automatic behavior. I went to the Lord and told Him that if He left me to myself I could not do otherwise; it was up to Him to correct what was wrong.

Again a few days after this I saw myself in a situation in which I would have involuntarily lied, but this time I was shocked to see that I had spontaneously told the truth. Don’t you think that it was God implanting truth in my heart? Don’t you think God was transforming an impulse to lie in an impulse to tell the truth? Well, this happened almost 25 years ago. Until this day, every time I tell the truth spontaneously I still marvel, because it’s a miracle. Not once since that day have I told one lie involuntarily.

Am I still tempted to lie? By all means, like all human beings. There were many occasions on which, pressed by circumstances, I was tempted to lie - but never involuntarily. Temptation no longer led me automatically to tell a lie. I now had the choice to lie or not; I could evaluate things and choose. I can say that my natural tendency now is to tell the truth, although, as I said, I can be tempted, in pressing circumstances, to tell a lie. In some few occasions during these almost 25 years, I did choose to tell a lie. My connection with Christ failed and Satan took the opportunity to make me fall from the truth. But can you see it is completely different now? I no longer have an impulse to tell lies, I have an impulse to tell the truth.

Evil impulses aren’t suddenly removed at conversion. God will bring them to our notice one by one, and God must transform them one by one. The weaknesses you have are not my weaknesses, and my weaknesses may not be yours, but all these weaknesses may be corrected, and this is what victory is all about. However, this victory can only be maintained through a living connection with Christ moment by moment, otherwise we will fall.

Thank you Rosangela for sharing that personal testimony. I sympathize with you regarding the comment about Romans 7. I passed through the same thing, but in my case it was longer than 6 years (about double that).

I'm curious as to why you think I haven't been understanding what you've been writing. It seems to me I have been, but simply do not see things the same way, and for that reason have been responding and asking questions. Seeing something in a different way does not necessarily imply a lack of understanding.

However, I am sure it's possible I have been misunderstanding you, so if there's something I wrote which made you think "He's not understanding what I'm writing." I'd appreciate it if you would point that out. I know I've often been frustrated on this site at this very thing as I see my words twisted in ways I never intended, making it obvious to me that I was not understood. So if I have done something similar, I'd like to know.

There is one thing I'm not clear about, and that is how Christ could be sexually tempted according to how you see things. I got the impression from what you wrote previously that you did not believe that Christ could be sexually tempted, but your last post seems to be saying that He could, so this is one point at least where I have apparently misunderstood you (unless I'm misunderating your latest post, which I've taken to imply that Christ could be sexually tempted).

Thank you again for your personal testimony.

Rosangela, your testimony helped me understand alot better what you've been trying to convey. Thank you so much. And congratulations on your new life and victories. I am truly thrilled for you. I love it when the gospel works so powerfully in the lives of God's dear people.

But it sounds like your done posting on this thread and topic. Too bad. Just in case you end up reading this post I want to respond to what you posted above.

You referred to spontaneous lying versus calculated lying. I agree there is a difference. However, I believe the origin of each is the same, namely, sinful flesh nature. That is, all internally generated temptations originate in our fallen flesh nature - not in the mind of the new man.

We become consciously aware of the temptations (i.e., generated and communicated as unholy thoughts and feelings by our fallen flesh nature) in our new man mind, but they do not originate there. They originate in our sinful flesh nature.

But I agree with you that all our natural impulses begin as innocent and legitimate needs (i.e., hunger, thirst, joy, happiness, peace, etc.). I also believe they are generated and transmitted by our various organs along the central nervous system as encoded electrical impulses, which wonderfully, and mysteriously, become conscious thoughts and feelings in our new man mind (in the case of born again believers).

However, I also believe the electrical impulses are intercepted and perverted by our fallen nature. They are converted into unholy conscious thoughts and feelings. With the mind of the new man we may, by the grace of God, recognize and resist them unto the honor and glory of God.

Certain aspects of our fallen flesh nature are softened and subdued over time. As we abide in Jesus and consistently resist them they lose their power and appeal and cease to be a problem. However, other forms of the same problem (for example, impatience) will surface as we grow older.

Our sinful flesh nature will never stop perverting the innocent and legitimate needs produced by our body. We are stuck with it until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one, like the one Adam and Eve possessed before they chose to eat the forbidden fruit.