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Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble
[Re: His child]
#167968
09/06/14 07:00 AM
09/06/14 07:00 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Regular Member
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
Colorado, USA
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In Revelation 13 the second beast is the image beast But when the descriptions of the papal beast (13:1-10) are compared to (13:11:18) the beasts do not look anything alike. From the obvious differences, some might conclude that the image beast (second beast) does not look like the first beast (papal beast).
But though the description of the first beast is not given in the same terminology as the second beast, the second appears as the first. How so?
The papacy is clothed in lamblike garb.
I don't believe this is correct. Looking at relevant excerpts from Revelation 11-14 we see the following- 11 "And I beheld another beast..." 12 "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him..." 14 "...saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast..." Following the text alone, without interpretation, the second beast is not the same entity as the first beast. The second beast is also not itself the image beast, but tells people to make the image beast. This is an important distinction because, as we see in verse 15, the image beast acts as a distinct entity as may be considered a third beast. Depending on which one you read as "he" in verse 16, it could be read as saying the image beast is the one to force the mark of the beast on people.
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Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble
[Re: James Peterson]
#167974
09/06/14 04:21 PM
09/06/14 04:21 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
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Posts: 2,536
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I don’t see where in the Bible Jacob had this “IMMENSE faith in God” that you talk about in those beginning 98 years of his life. What the Bible describes is a man that contended with his brother & Laban all his life. It was the Lord’s mercy on Jacob by sending him an Angel that got him out of that rut he was in. Sometimes, we need to meditate on the word of God, think deeply about matters, search diligently within ourselves for the answers we seek. /// ??? The Bible doesn't say Jacob was a man with an “IMMENSE faith in God” before He overcame. Show me the supported texts that made you say this.
Blessings
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Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble
[Re: Elle]
#167975
09/06/14 04:28 PM
09/06/14 04:28 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
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Posts: 2,536
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It looks like the discussion has not even considered the time of trouble of Jacob yet? Don't you think it is common sense to first understand Jacob's trouble recorded in Genesis before we try to figure out what will be the end time of Jacob's trouble? I haven't read all this discussion, but what I've read there's a lot of speculation going on without really understanding the real trouble Jacob had and how he became victorious which was marked with his new name Israel. Jacob's life does set up the TYPE for the nation of Israel, and also for us individually that we need to go through those fall feasts pattern(time of trouble) before we can become victorious as he did. Is Jacob' trouble the same as the time of trouble SDAs has defined??? Let me know what you think. Being in the SDA Church for over a quarter century, I never really understood Jacob’s victory over the angel besides the cliché presented at church. Nor after 5 years of observing the Feasts, did I really understood the meaning of the fall feast of Tabernacles(booths or Sukkoth(plural of sukkah)). A sukkah is a temporary hut or tent. There are two places named Sukkoth in the Bible. 1. Sukkoth-CanaanThe first, is found in Gen 33:17 “ Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built himself a house, and made booths[ sukkoth, tents] for his livestock: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.” This place was in Canaan. Notice that Jacob build himself a house and not a sukkah when he finally arrived in Canaan. It was his livestock(sheep and goats) that he build sukkoth for; thus he was led to called that place Sukkoth. Initially, this text seems contradictory for why name a place Sukkoth when he didn't build any for himself??? Yet, it was in Jacob’s journey story after leaving Laban that I recently found some understanding in his victory and its connection with him arriving in Sukkoth-Canaan. 2. Sukkoth in the WildernessThe second place name Sukkoth in the Bible, is the first Israelite encampment in the wilderness when they left Egypt. For 40 years, the Israelites moved and pitch their tent( sukkah) from place to place following the pillar of fire and cloud wherever the Lord led them. Israel were not to build a house and settle anywhere while being in the wilderness for they needed to promptly follow whenever the pillar of fire and cloud would move. Building a house to settle somewhere had to wait until the Lord led them into their final destination into Canaan -- the Promised Land -- to receive their inheritance. Thus, their wilderness experience in a tent( sukkah) was their intermediate spiritual journey that is between Passover(justification) and Feast of Tabernacles(entering the promised land). Life of Jacob a TYPE of the Life of the nation of IsraelHosea compares the life of Jacob to the life of Israel. Israel, like Jacob after his slavery to Laban, was heading to return to the land of Canaan to keep the appointed feasts(Hos 12:9). When we study closely his journey between leaving Laban and arriving to Canaan, we notice that there was 3 stops or encampments by which Jacob gave these places names. The meanings of these 3 places are types pointing to the 3 fall feasts(Day of Trumpet, Day of atonement and Feast of Tabernacle) that each one of us must experience in our own spiritual journey. The Names of the 3 encampments of Jacob(Israel) with a brief explanation of its feast type: 1) Mahanaim : Means “two camps” by which was the place Jacob separated Rachel’s family(fig. overcomers) from Leah’s family(fig. the congregation). This points to the two resurrections which are symbolized by the feast of Trumpets. There were two trumpets made to summon the people. Blowing one trumpet summon the rulers(=overcomers who will rule with Christ), blowing both trumpets summon the congregation(=church). 2) Penuel or Peniel : was the place where Jacob wrestles what he thought was a man and ended up being an angel. That’s when he had an epiphany moment realizing that he wasn’t wrestling with Esau all along, but with the Lord. That’s why Jacob said to Esau the next day “ for I see your face as one sees the face of God" (Gen. 33:10). Jacob didn’t see the face of the Lord in the face of Esau unless it was by special revelation that he understood the Sovereignty of God behind every circumstance including Esau, Laban, etc... So Jacob named “ the place Peniel[face of God ]: for I have seen God face to face, yet my life is preserved.” Gen 32:30 Dr. Bullinger comments on Jacob prevailing over the angel: "prevailed = succeeded. He had contended for the birthright and succeeded (25:29-34). He had contended for the blessing and succeeded (27). He had contended with Laban and succeeded (31). He had contended with 'men' and succeeded. Now he contends with God--and fails. Hence, his name was changed to Isra-el, God commands, to teach him the greatly needed lesson of dependence upon God." In Penuel was the day of revelation and decision for Jacob that completely changed his life from being a Jacob = usurper, contender(fighting against the enemy) to being Isra-el = God Commands ( seeing a Sovereign God behind every circumstances). Penuel represents the Day of Atonement by which the Lord turn it into a Jubilee for Jacob – the highest type of Sabbath. When Jacob’s eyes were opened to see the face of the Lord behind the circumstances, recognizing the Lord as Sovereign; only there after Jacob-Israel could stop fighting against enemies and start resting in God in all things and enter His rest. For 98 years, Jacob wrestled with his brother Esau and with his uncle Laban. Then, God had mercy upon him and sent an angel the night before meeting Esau. Near daybreak, Jacob had the revelation and saw that he was actually wrestling with an angel. All along, the problem was not with Esau, but with his superficial vision. Esau was used to teach Jacob of His sovereignty. This revelation brought Jacob to repentance which is depicted by the Day of Atonement and prepared the way for him to keep the feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth). 3)Sukkoth : was his final destination in the land of Canaan. He set up the Tabernacle type(or pattern) after his life-long journey as a Jacob in which by the Lord's mercy, he ended up as an overcomer as an Isra-el. Only once he overcame could he enter the Lord’s rest in Canaan and build himself a house to settle in.
Blessings
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Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble
[Re: Josh M]
#168000
09/07/14 06:13 PM
09/07/14 06:13 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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In Revelation 13 the second beast is the image beast...The papacy is clothed in lamblike garb. I don't believe this is correct. Looking at relevant excerpts from Revelation 11-14 we see the following-
11 "And I beheld another beast..." 12 "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him..." 14 "...saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast..."
Following the text alone, without interpretation, the second beast is not the same entity as the first beast. The second beast is also not itself the image beast, but tells people to make the image beast.
This is an important distinction because, as we see in verse 15, the image beast acts as a distinct entity as may be considered a third beast. Depending on which one you read as "he" in verse 16, it could be read as saying the image beast is the one to force the mark of the beast on people.
Hi Josh, I don't know where your thought "the second beast is not the same entity as the first beast" came from in relation to my comment. I implied no such assertion. But what is the “image to the beast”? and how is it to be formed? The image is made by the two-horned beast, and is an image to the first beast. It is also called an image of the beast. Then to learn what the image is like, and how it is to be formed, we must study the characteristics of the beast itself, —the papacy." {GC88 443.2} I study the papacy and America in its current position and see very clearly an image beast. The only thing lacking is for America to push Sunday sacredness and all the trappings of the Mark of the Beast.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble
[Re: His child]
#168004
09/07/14 10:50 PM
09/07/14 10:50 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Regular Member
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
Colorado, USA
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I will admit that it was late and I was half asleep when I read your post, but it's mostly from this quote- But though the description of the first beast is not given in the same terminology as the second beast, the second appears as the first. How so?
The papacy is clothed in lamblike garb. This comes across to me as a suggestion that the second beast is secretly the first beast in different clothing. Now that I've reread your post many times I don't think that's what you meant. I don't think you're that far off, but I disagree that the first beast is under any requirement to match the appearance of the second beast. The image beast is separate from the second beast. It's described in Revelation as being made at the direction of the second beast and as an image "of" and "to" the first beast. It's the image beast that looks like the first beast, not the first beast that changes its appearance to that of the second beast. The spirit of persecution manifested by paganism and the papacy is again to be revealed. Prophecy declares that this power will say “to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast.” [Revelation 13:14.] The image is made to the first or leopard-like beast, which is the one brought to view in the third angel’s message. By this first beast is represented the Roman Church, an ecclesiastical body clothed with civil power, having authority to punish all dissenters. The image to the beast represents another religious body clothed with similar power. The formation of this image is the work of that beast whose peaceful rise and mild professions render it so striking a symbol of the United States. Here is to be found an image of the papacy. When the churches of our land, uniting upon such points of faith as are held by them in common, shall influence the State to enforce their decrees and sustain their institutions, then will Protestant America have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy. In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends. What makes the image beast an image of and to the first beast is that it imitates the behavior of the first beast, which is to say that a religious power uses civil power to enforce its will upon all people. The image beast seems to be apostate Protestants who, having accepted the Pope's Sabbath instead of God's Sabbath, use their influence over the civil powers to force people to receive the mark of the beast. I believe Jacob's trouble is during this time, which is still future from now, but probably not by much.
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Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble
[Re: dedication]
#168007
09/08/14 12:13 AM
09/08/14 12:13 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Regular Member
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
Colorado, USA
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This is the night of Jacob's trouble. If Jacob had not repented and found his strength in the Lord previously he would not have prevailed with any heavenly Angel. But now in his trouble he does prevail and pleads for the blessing. That is what I understand Jacob's trouble to be. Consider the following from Great Controversy- As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations and turn from their allegiance to God.
Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached.
On every hand they hear the plottings of treason and see the active working of rebellion; and there is aroused within them an intense desire, an earnest yearning of soul, that this great apostasy may be terminated and the wickedness of the wicked may come to an end. But while they plead with God to stay the work of rebellion, it is with a keen sense of self-reproach that they themselves have no more power to resist and urge back the mighty tide of evil. They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them.
They afflict their souls before God, pointing to their past repentance of their many sins, and pleading the Saviour's promise: "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5. Their faith does not fail because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the keenest anxiety, terror, and distress, they do not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the Angel; and the language of their souls is: "I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me."
Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. Also from Patriarchs and Prophets, describing that night- Bitterest of all was the thought that it was his own sin which had brought this peril upon the innocent. With earnest cries and tears he made his prayer before God. Suddenly a strong hand was laid upon him. He thought that an enemy was seeking his life, and he endeavored to wrest himself from the grasp of his assailant. In the darkness the two struggled for the mastery. Not a word was spoken, but Jacob put forth all his strength, and did not relax his efforts for a moment. While he was thus battling for his life, the sense of his guilt pressed upon his soul; his sins rose up before him, to shut him out from God. But in his terrible extremity he remembered God's promises, and his whole heart went out in entreaty for His mercy. ... Jacob had received the blessing for which his soul had longed. His sin as a supplanter and deceiver had been pardoned. The crisis in his life was past. Doubt, perplexity, and remorse had embittered his existence, but now all was changed; and sweet was the peace of reconciliation with God. Jacob no longer feared to meet his brother. God, who had forgiven his sin, could move the heart of Esau also to accept his humiliation and repentance. Jacob's trouble was not simply that he faced hardship or danger, but that he faced the guilt of his past and the fear that he was not worthy to stand before God.
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Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble
[Re: Josh M]
#168022
09/09/14 06:23 AM
09/09/14 06:23 AM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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He didn't repent before he wrestle with the angel. The Bible make no mention of that nor do I believe it is that the reason he got the victory. This was his prayer before he wrestled with the angel: AV Gn 32:11 Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, [and] the mother with the children.He was still in fear while wrestling. Actually all night long he thought he was wrestling with a man. AV Gn 32:24 . And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.The Bible doesn't say who Jacob thought it was but we know that Esau was coming for him and he was afraid for his life and for his family. So it is not a long stretch that Jacob thought he was wrestling with either one of Esau's men or Esau Himself. It's only when the angel touch his hip that he realized it was an angel and not a man. Then Jacob kept on holding on to the Angel until he received a blessing. Kinda demanding don't you think? Jacob was still the same Jacob that took what he wanted by trickery. He hasn't repented yet.Despite of Jacob, the Lord did grant him a blessing for the Lord had made a unconditional promise-covenant with him. So He gave Jacob the biggest BLESSING ever! And that is what any Christian has to have this same revelation-victory-blessing to be given the same name ISRAEL. This is the night of Jacob's trouble. If Jacob had not repented and found his strength in the Lord previously he would not have prevailed with any heavenly Angel. But now in his trouble he does prevail and pleads for the blessing. That is what I understand Jacob's trouble to be. Consider the following from Great Controversy- As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations and turn from their allegiance to God.
Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached.
On every hand they hear the plottings of treason and see the active working of rebellion; and there is aroused within them an intense desire, an earnest yearning of soul, that this great apostasy may be terminated and the wickedness of the wicked may come to an end. But while they plead with God to stay the work of rebellion, it is with a keen sense of self-reproach that they themselves have no more power to resist and urge back the mighty tide of evil. They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them.
They afflict their souls before God, pointing to their past repentance of their many sins, and pleading the Saviour's promise: "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5. Their faith does not fail because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the keenest anxiety, terror, and distress, they do not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the Angel; and the language of their souls is: "I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me."
Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. Also from Patriarchs and Prophets, describing that night- Bitterest of all was the thought that it was his own sin which had brought this peril upon the innocent. With earnest cries and tears he made his prayer before God. Suddenly a strong hand was laid upon him. He thought that an enemy was seeking his life, and he endeavored to wrest himself from the grasp of his assailant. In the darkness the two struggled for the mastery. Not a word was spoken, but Jacob put forth all his strength, and did not relax his efforts for a moment. While he was thus battling for his life, the sense of his guilt pressed upon his soul; his sins rose up before him, to shut him out from God. But in his terrible extremity he remembered God's promises, and his whole heart went out in entreaty for His mercy. ... Jacob had received the blessing for which his soul had longed. His sin as a supplanter and deceiver had been pardoned. The crisis in his life was past. Doubt, perplexity, and remorse had embittered his existence, but now all was changed; and sweet was the peace of reconciliation with God. Jacob no longer feared to meet his brother. God, who had forgiven his sin, could move the heart of Esau also to accept his humiliation and repentance. Jacob's trouble was not simply that he faced hardship or danger, but that he faced the guilt of his past and the fear that he was not worthy to stand before God.
Blessings
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