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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: asygo]
#160537
01/18/14 03:14 PM
01/18/14 03:14 PM
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SDA
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Furthermore:
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. {GC 539.3}
Who will punish? Will sin execute justice? No question - sinners will die! And it will be horrible. You seem to have listened to the series "The Science of Sin and Salvation". Continue to listen. Lecture 13 is titles, "The End of Sin and Sinners".
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#160538
01/18/14 04:30 PM
01/18/14 04:30 PM
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But who/what executes justice, judgment, and punishment in love and mercy? According to my quotes, God does. According to your quote, God never does.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: asygo]
#160542
01/18/14 05:56 PM
01/18/14 05:56 PM
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APL, there are several ways Jesus punishes and kills sinners. You are advocating one of them. It is unnatural and unbiblical to force the Bible and the SOP to fit the one way you favor. Sin will not destroy sinners in the lake of fire. Jesus will use fire to punish and kill sin, hell, death, and sinners in the lake of fire. The following passage is one many that makes it clear Jesus is the one who punishes and kills sinners. He uses several different ways to accomplish His plan and purpose of punishment - including your favorite one. Leviticus
26:13 I [am] the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:
26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your [high] ways shall be desolate.
26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of [my] covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26:26 [And] when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver [you] your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. However, the withdraw and permit principle of punishment requires Jesus doing something that results in sinners suffering and dying. Jesus is responsible. Otherwise it wouldn't happen. Breaking the Sabbath, for example, does not naturally result in the long list of terrible things enumerated in the passage above. There is nothing about doing unnecessary work on the Sabbath that causes nature to go out of whack. Sabbath breaking does not cause earthquakes, tornadoes, or flooding. Jesus either causes it Himself, or He commands holy angels to do it, or He permits evil angels to do it. It is punishment - not cause and effect.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#160543
01/18/14 07:31 PM
01/18/14 07:31 PM
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Active Member 2020
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Who will punish? Will sin execute justice? And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them , I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. All things were made by His word. The word is the judge. All things work by laws that God has created. "God has ordained laws for the government not only of all living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything, whether great or small, animate or inanimate, is under fixed laws which cannot be disregarded. There are no exceptions to this rule." The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}' Like the angels, the dwellers in Eden had been placed upon probation; their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1} Does God have to come in and inflict the punishment for sin? NO NO NO. SIN pays its wage, death. Does God have to come down and inflict lung cancer on a smoker? If you do not take care of your teeth, does God have to come down and put cavities in your teeth? NO. The words that God has spoken will be the judge of both the righteous and the sinner. Cause and effect. And yes MM, this includes the Sabbath. The Sabbath is not an arbitrary rule given by God as you want to believe, whose transgression has no inherent consequences for its transgression. Sin is the problem, not God. "The Saviour in His teachings ever showed the relation between cause and effect."
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#160545
01/18/14 08:54 PM
01/18/14 08:54 PM
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It was in love to the world, in love to Israel, and even to the transgressors, that crime was punished with swift and terrible severity. {PP 325.3}
By whom/what was crime "punished with swift and terrible severity"? Was it sin that did this "in love"?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: asygo]
#160546
01/18/14 09:12 PM
01/18/14 09:12 PM
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It was in love to the world, in love to Israel, and even to the transgressors, that crime was punished with swift and terrible severity. {PP 325.3} YES! But what had the people done? They had rejected God and taken up the sword. They were never to fight! These then are the terrible things that would have come upon the transgressors themselves, the Israelites as a nation, and the world in general if God had done nothing for them. The worst possible results would have eventuated. The love of God, that marvelous, infinite, and unchangeable love, drove Him to tell them how they could save themselves from so terrible a fate. He could no longer do it for them for they had taken over the work themselves, but they could save themselves from the worst effects of their own choice provided they would listen to and follow His counsels. Whether they followed those counsels or not was as much a matter of their own choice as when they were faced with the alternative of leaving the swords with the dead Egyptians or of appropriating them. At the Red Sea they elected to take the wrong course by which they supplanted God as their Protector. But while not prepared to obey Him in this area, they were not rendered incapable of accepting His guidance in other matters. They could, if they would, adhere to His directions outlining how they could minimize the evil they had chosen. In effect, as they faced the crisis occasioned by the worshiping of the golden calf, they were confronted with two possibilities. If they did not take some action, millions would perish. If they followed the Lord’s suggestions, then only a few would die by comparison, and a great deal of tragedy would be averted. But, if anything was done at all, it had to be by them because they had deprived God of any opportunity to take appropriate action Himself. Great care must be taken not to slide into the trap of supposing that because force was necessary to put down the rebellion, God compromised His principles on this occasion and resorted to force by using the righteous Levites as His direct instruments. God does not change His principles for anything or anybody. With Him there is no variableness or shadow of turning. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God’s government {DA 22}. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order {DA 759}. Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ’s kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished {AA 12}.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#160547
01/18/14 10:12 PM
01/18/14 10:12 PM
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SIN punished with swift and terrible severity in LOVE? Or GOD PUNISHED with swift and terrible severity in love?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: asygo]
#160563
01/19/14 03:04 AM
01/19/14 03:04 AM
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Did God swing the sword? Nope. Did the people abandon God? Yep. Did God abandon the people? Nope. Even when following their own way, God gave them instruction to minimize the damage. Did the swift punishment ultimately accomplish its goal of completely stopping the rebellion? Nope. It slowed it down but did not eliminate it.
{AA 12}{DA 22}{DA 759}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#160565
01/19/14 04:15 AM
01/19/14 04:15 AM
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SDA
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http://spectrummagazine.org/article/char...cian-theologian... Question: You belong to the Adventist Church; perhaps you were born into a church-member’s family. But why do you remain Seventh-day Adventist? In a conversation with, say, your child or a close friend, what would you offer as the most important reason? Answer: In conversations with my children and close friends, the three distinctive Adventist beliefs I tend to emphasize are the right picture of God, the cosmic conflict, and the non-immortality of the soul, to put the latter in somewhat archaic terms. These are existentially important beliefs to me. I could belong not to a church that believes in an everlasting hell. My church, too, needs to do better with regard to notions of divine retribution. We should be able to say without flinching that God does not do torture.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#160567
01/19/14 05:02 AM
01/19/14 05:02 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Did God swing the sword? Nope. Did the people abandon God? Yep. Did God abandon the people? Nope. Even when following their own way, God gave them instruction to minimize the damage. Did the swift punishment ultimately accomplish its goal of completely stopping the rebellion? Nope. It slowed it down but did not eliminate it.
{AA 12}{DA 22}{DA 759} So you believe that God punished. I agree.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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