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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#162010
02/18/14 04:15 PM
02/18/14 04:15 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Given your distinction between murder and killing, if God commands people to kill those who have not murdered, does that mean He commands people to murder and therefore it is His will that people murder? You have misrepresented my position and the Biblical distinction. Then you have not given the Biblical distinction nor your distinction. Murder was not the only offense to incur capital punishment. Other offenses, as you may recall, that required capital punishment included: willful Sabbath-breaking, rebellion against parental authority, rape, adultery, and failing to restrain one's dangerous animal to the point where it killed someone (this list is not intended to be exhaustive, merely descriptive).
In the end, any sin, however small, requires capital punishment of the offender. The only way for each of us to obtain mercy and pardon, is to accept Jesus' substitutionary payment of our penalty in our place.
Who determines sin? Do people ever determine "sin"? If you "sin" against me, can I kill you and it not be defined as murder? Or do you mean in a dictator way. The Guy with the big guns determines who gets killed, and because He determines it, that in itself means it is "right"? What is good for the goose is not good for the gander?
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: kland]
#162011
02/18/14 04:18 PM
02/18/14 04:18 PM
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I noticed you swapped "capital punishment" for "killing". Do you mean there are only two things, murder and capital punishment? So that all people who kill and it is not for the purpose of capital punishment, it is considered "murder"?
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: kland]
#162021
02/18/14 05:33 PM
02/18/14 05:33 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Arnold, I answered Obey to your poll. Abraham is an example of obeying God's command to do something that is normally contrary to His will. Abraham obeyed believing God would resurrect Isaac.
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#162022
02/18/14 05:40 PM
02/18/14 05:40 PM
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M: Where in the Bible did Jesus command divorce? He commanded capital punishment multiple times (a point you have not confessed).
A: He commanded the people to spy out the land, which was not His will. 1. Where in the Bible did Jesus command divorce? 2. You refuse to confess Jesus commanded capital punishment. 3. Where in inspiration does it say it wasn't God's will to send out spies? God sent them into the land for a special purpose, but the spies brought back an evil report, full of unbelief and complaint. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 6}
Here it was proposed by the people that spies be sent up to survey the country. The matter was presented before the Lord by Moses, and permission was granted, with the direction that one of the rulers of each tribe should be selected for this purpose. {PP 387.1} MM - you questions are not on topic. Does God give commands in situations which are not His will? YES. Who proposed to send in spies? God? Nope. I asked about divorce because you have not proven Jesus commanded it. I wrote about capital punishment because you refuse to confess Jesus commanded it. I asked about spies because you have not proven it was against Jesus' will.
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#162024
02/18/14 05:43 PM
02/18/14 05:43 PM
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Kland, you refuse to confess the Bible distinguishes between killing and murder. Jesus commanded capital punishment in the Law of Moses. You refuse to confess it.
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#162029
02/18/14 07:12 PM
02/18/14 07:12 PM
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God never commands against His will. I'm trying to point out that concept. I agree with you, so I voted that I wouldn't know what to do. MM voted for obedience, with good precedent. I believe APL has said before that he wouldn't do it, but he hasn't said so here. For those who think the scenario is possible, the precedent of choice is between Samuel and Saul.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#162063
02/19/14 06:21 PM
02/19/14 06:21 PM
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Kland, you refuse to confess the Bible distinguishes between killing and murder. Jesus commanded capital punishment in the Law of Moses. You refuse to confess it. I'm not aware it does. You say the difference is between killing a murderer and killing someone who has not murdered. The Bible lists that. It doesn't say that represents His will, though. The 10 commandments says, thou shalt not kill. It doesn't address motive, convenience, or whatever reason someone may have. Is God above His law? Hitler was above His law. You think you are above your "rules". Is God like that?
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#162073
02/19/14 09:10 PM
02/19/14 09:10 PM
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Kland, capital punishment cases are clearly outlined in the Law of Moses. Killing murderers is only one such case. Exodus 19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, [that ye] go [not] up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him. 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood [shall be] upon them. 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it [is] wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them. 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
Numbers 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Deuteronomy 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance. The laws regulating capital punishment are numerous. From unruly children to Sabbath-breakers, the law is comprehensive. They were "surely put to death" in different ways - some by stoning, some by fire, and some by hanging. You have not confessed Jesus commanded capital punishment.
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#162082
02/20/14 02:30 AM
02/20/14 02:30 AM
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OP
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Well said, Mike.
Perhaps, if kland, APL, Johann, et al. wish to maintain that "Thou shalt not kill" is the proper translation, in place of "Thou shalt not murder" (the correct translation), then they will have to define the distinction between "put to death" and "kill/murder." I wonder how they will do that?
To have no distinction at all, whatsoever, means God commanded BOTH to kill AND not to kill. This, then, forces upon mankind an impossibility. We cannot possibly please God under such circumstances. This is exactly the type of contradiction that Satan pushes as being "true." APL, kland, et al. are falling for Satan's lies here.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Do God's Commands Represent His Will?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#162088
02/20/14 11:05 AM
02/20/14 11:05 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Iceland
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Which one will be more dead than the other as a result of the act?
Jesus was quite radical. According to His interpretation was hatred killing or murder?
What is the punishment?
Last edited by Johann; 02/20/14 11:09 AM.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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