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Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162416
02/26/14 02:57 PM
02/26/14 02:57 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.


Or governed by a strict order by the King, like in the KJV, to be certain the new Bible is fully in accordance with the doctrines established by papacy and inherited by the Church of England. . . and followed with waggling tails by all of those who believe this to be the only possible truth.

Actually the translators of KJV also followed how this and several other words had already been translated earlier with the approval of the establishment. This is by many regarded as the only true conservatism, conserved by tradition.


Blessings Johann,

I don't believe it's fair to take one small part of Church history out of context like that. Those translators could look at history including that of the Jews and never see a woman ordained as a Pastor of Elder. When considering 1 Cor. 9:13-14, they would never see a woman consecrated to the Priesthood. As a matter of fact, even to our day there still has never been a woman consecrated to the Priesthood.

So, I don't believe there was any political or cultural bias that had any effect on on the KJV Bible's translation. Not in this regard anyway.


If you really think this part of history is taken out of context then you should "complain" to the Bible Societies, because they were circulating this information in connection with the 400th anniversary of the KJV as part of the original history of that translation. That was how it came to my attention.

Just show them that you have much better information about what happened.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162417
02/26/14 03:11 PM
02/26/14 03:11 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In other words, the Greek word isn't limited to just one meaning, therefore, those verses need to be looked at within each of their own contexts.

I think the Greek word is much more cohesive than the English usages have come to be. We think of "minister" as an elevated position. But the word is more synonymous with the likes of "servant." Let the Bible explain itself, rather than imposing modern meanings upon ancient words.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This is just what I have been saying. This is the reason why terms like minister, servant, and deacon, are almost like synonyms. One reason why I have such a difficulty understanding why certain people regard themselves as conservatives, and yet, perhaps reluctantly, agree that deaconesses could be ordained, but it is impossible to ordain ministers, even though in Greek the same terms are used for all of these positions.

Why should we today invent such distinctions that were unknown to Paul, just to invent a strange doctrine to make it possible to ordain some and not others?
(bold emphasis mine)

What distinction unknown to Paul do you think is being invented today Johann?


The big distinction we make between various church offices.

Romans 16:1
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

Paul claims to be a deacon as well. We approve of ordaining deacons. Here we have this sister who was a deacon.

In Acts we are told that deacons baptized according to a literal understanding of the Bible.

Why do we make the distinction the Bible does not?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162418
02/26/14 03:34 PM
02/26/14 03:34 PM
Johann  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I guess I will have to go dig it into it, but where did 'Elder' or the position of the elders come from, is it the equivalent of deacon?


The Greek word is generally "presbyteros". Translated mostly "elder" in English versions.

Going through the lists in my Young's Analytical I notice that all through the Old Testament and the Gospels the term applies generally to tribal leaders or captains in Israel.

It does not seem to apply to church leaders until in Acts.

Is this what our modern pastors are? Or are they diakonos?


Well, in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, Paul compares the "preachers of the Gospel" with the priests in the earthly temple. You will never find any women there! (Hebrews 7:5)


As far as I can see the only comparison Paul makes is that those who function in the temple are to receive a compensation for their work. The Christians soon stopped gathering in the temple, but had their own convocations.

Only the Roman Catholic church continued with the offerings in their doctrine that the priest miraculously made a body of Jesus Christ of the wafer. And then he repeated the offering on the Old Testament.

Seventh-day Adventist have accepted that Jesus Christ is now our High Priest in the new Sanctuary service, and therefore there is no more a priest making an offering during the mass.

I have been through the system. I was asked to tell about our religion in a Roman Catholic Church. Before my lecture the priest performed a mass, but because I was not a Roman Catholic I could not have the wafer, also because I did not believe in the miracle that the wafer would become the real body of Christ in my mouth.

This shows us that we follow the Reformation. One of the reasons for the reformation was because the Roman Catholic church believed their priest fathers were miracle makers and followed the Old Testament system of male only priesthood.

Martin Luther claimed this was false, and he taught that any church member could perform any of the rites of the Church pastor, regardless of male or female, since we now are all members of the Royal Priesthood.

Are you a Protestant or a Roman Catholic today?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162419
02/26/14 03:39 PM
02/26/14 03:39 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
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Thank you for the questions, Alchemy. Just ask again if I did not give an answer to your satisfaction.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162423
02/26/14 04:46 PM
02/26/14 04:46 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Nowhere in the Bible does God forbid ordaining women elders and pastors. Jesus Himself ordained women to serve as leaders. His appointment means more than humans laying hands on someone (and humans refusing to lay hands on someone).

Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162445
02/26/14 10:45 PM
02/26/14 10:45 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
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You are so right, MM, even if you search the Scripture for the literal meaning of the text, it isn't there.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Alchemy] #162452
02/27/14 12:09 AM
02/27/14 12:09 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: asygo
That's the verb form. The noun form of the word is diakonos (G1249). We can see all the verses here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1249&t=KJV

It is interesting that Paul applies the word to Phebe.


I guess Paul thought Phoebe should be a Deaconess. There isn't any problem with women being ordained to ministries as far as I can tell. It's when they are ordained to certain positions that is of concern.

Are there qualifications for deaconesses? Does the Bible specify? Or should we just ordain anyone who answers the call from the Nominating Committee?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #162457
02/27/14 01:06 AM
02/27/14 01:06 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nowhere in the Bible does God forbid ordaining women elders and pastors. Jesus Himself ordained women to serve as leaders. His appointment means more than humans laying hands on someone (and humans refusing to lay hands on someone).


You keep saying this but you have not even shown one scripture that supports this.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Mountain Man] #162465
02/27/14 05:54 AM
02/27/14 05:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nowhere in the Bible does God forbid ordaining women elders and pastors. Jesus Himself ordained women to serve as leaders. His appointment means more than humans laying hands on someone (and humans refusing to lay hands on someone).


Nowhere in the Bible is ordination ever forbidden...of anyone. So we could turn your statement into one authorizing the ordination of ____________.

The problem with this need to find a prohibition is, God does not need to proscribe all of the "special cases" when it's much easier to set down qualifications for the called. People are unhappy with those qualifications, and look for loopholes, saying things like "Well, since God did not forbid this...."

What must God think to see His people looking for ways to sidestep His clear directions!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: "Ordination" from strictly the Biblical perspective [Re: Green Cochoa] #162485
02/27/14 02:32 PM
02/27/14 02:32 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Mountain Man said "Nowhere in the Bible does God forbid ordaining women elders and pastors."

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

***** STAFF EDIT *****

You said "Jesus Himself ordained women to serve as leaders".

***** STAFF EDIT *****

If Jesus ORDAINED a woman, prove it. Through scripture or any of the writings of the Lord's servant.

Last edited by Daryl; 03/03/14 12:12 AM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.

Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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