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Waggoner was expressing the doctrines of our church and the historica Christian church and EVERYONE agreed. He said WE, not HE, and You do not speak for the church. ****** STAFF EDIT ******

Are you saying that the historical church and the Pioneers did not agree on this subject?

Then why would there be no change until little children like you think to change what has been for 2000 years?

Do you deny that this has been the historical view on this?

Firstly in speaking of 1 Cor. 14:24-25, never did I say YOU SAID women should keep silent permanently in church. So not sure why you used that as an example.

I wrote --
" I presented thoughts on this text once before and people told me not to take it literally, including you, and including your quote from Waggoner who added a lot of exceptions."

Everyone makes exception to that verse, no one takes it as it reads -- including YOU! That was my point.



And I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church.
Do you realize how many women have been sexually as well as spiritually abused because of that false teaching? Thousands upon thousands, way more than your example of one woman who turned out to be a lesbian. A lot of male ministers have turned out to be homosexuals as well.

Yes, we are to respect the minister and support him (when he is leading according to God's ways) but be in subjection to other men (other than one's husband) that is not Biblical.

That is Catholic Doctrine. Strict obedience to ecclesiastical leadership is essential doctrine in the Catholic Church. It is brought to its extreme in the Jesuit order as subordinates must obey "like a corpse" and ask no questions but do whatever the superior commands.

That is not how it is to be in the true church.

Matt 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and said unto them, You know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you.










I know what Waggoner wrote, that's why I said he doesn't believe Paul meant what we read in that three fold command for women to be silent, not to speak, either.

Neither you, nor Waggoner take that text as it reads.
Both of you make a lot of exceptions to a very emphatic thrice stated command.

That's why I said I agree, Paul wasn't teaching the things that verse said -- he was quoting the Corthinians who first wrote to him, and then rebuked them saying, "What? do you think the Word of God came only to you?

Paul's commands were that women could prophecy, witness, sing etc etc, in church, as long as everything was done in decency and order, but these Corinthians wanted to silence them, and Paul rebuked them.

The ones who thought they were so superior, were those Corinthians who wanted to silence all women. And they meant women were to maintain absolute silence -- no speaking.


Paul in 1 Cor. 14 isn't saying women are usurping superiority by speaking in church. That is reading things into the verse. He isn't speaking of ordination here.



And that is the truth.

In 1Corinthians Paul is answering questions which were asked in a letter written by some members of the Corinthian church.
It's like people answering questions on this forum, he sometimes quoted from the letter and then addressed the issue. The problem is -- the quotation marks, or whatever they used to mark quotes, have been lost.

The only way we can tell is when a statement appears which Paul then refutes.

The following is to illustrate this in Paul's letter.

Example One:
1 Cor. 7:15 "Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: 'It is well for a man not to touch a woman'"

The clause "It is well for a man not to touch a woman" should be regarded as the suggestion made by the Corinthians who have been influenced by some who taught abstinence in marriage.

In the texts that follow Paul clearly refutes that position.

EXAMPLE TWO:
The Corinthians have described their experience at the Lord's Supper.
11:21 For in eating every one takes his own supper ahead of others, and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

Obviously that was not what Paul is recommending for he reproves the practice in the next verse

11:22 What? have you not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise you the church of God, ....


EXAMPLE THREE:

6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

So Paul has strongly told the Corinthians they MUST experience a changed life in order to enter the kingdom. God has provided for their cleansing.

Then comes this confusing passage:

6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them.

This is a gnostic thought brought in from the Corinthian's background -- they are saying it doesn't matter what we do with the body it will be destroyed anyway, as long as in spirit we serve God.

Paul refutes this thinking in the next verses.

The body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.



In the same way Paul, first quotes their position and then refutes the Corinthians who want to silence women from testifying, prophesying and speaking in church.

Dedication, why are the names of women and children not counted among the number? Do you think God is a mysoganist? Or do you think the apostles were only being influenced by the traditions of the day?

In other words are you saying that Paul was not being inspired to say these things are the law of God?

Why was such a strong injunction placed upon the disciples that ONLY widdows over the age of 60 were to be deacons, and why they were the only women to be counted among the number? Why did Paul say the younger widows were to be excluded?

If the Holy Spirit is guiding your thoughts here why are you trying to explain away direct injunctions by an Apostle? Are you more qualified to explain these things than Paul?

Here again is the same argument you guys always run to. You always say "Look how many women have been abused under these guidelines".

I have said over and over that the abuses of men are no excuse not to follow the commands of God.

You said "I don't agree with that point. Christ is the head of the church, not men. Women are not to be in subjection to men in the church."

But 1 Corinthians 11:3 says; "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

You just in essence said you don't believe that this is inspired?

Listen, I am not doing this to be mean. I truly am being motivated by the Holy Spirit to address this. God inspires me to challenge false doctrines to help prepare the church for what is coming. Do you find fault in me for this?

If you could see my life, and see the wonderful blessings I have received in the light of all of this you would understand that I am not speaking for myself.

My wife is one of the greatest blessing I have ever received. She is from Indonesia where domestic violence is almost unheard of and they follow the natural order of men, even though 80% of Indonesia is Muslim, 10% are Christian and half of them are SDA and their families are strong and supportive.

I have never seen a more blessed church than the poor SDA people of Indonesia. They know how to govern their lives in light of these scriptural commands. The divorce rate is less than 5% in a lifetime! The children grow up understanding the power of the family.

In AMERICA you can't find hardly any women willing to listen to these scriptures and look at divorce rate even among SDA in this country! Our divorce rate is as high as non SDA people and just as many of our children go to jail for drugs and alcohol.

A Pastors kid here in my local church made the movie "Seventh GAY Adventist" and there are people pushing for this to be shown in our local congregations!

If you trace all these recent abominations of our church they all stem from a lack of respect for the biblical comprehension of the order of the church. When the United States SDA church started pushing for Women ordination of elders the evidence showed a direct correlation between this movement and the divorce rate. When the push for homosexual baptism came into the church the rate of young people experimenting with homosexual lifestyle shot up like a rocket.

I have personally heard a pastor say that homosexuality is genetic, and this same pastor was secretly baptizing homosexuals in our church and making them deacons and deaconesses within months of their baptism. I found out by seeing a known homosexual woman passing the collection plate with her lesbian biker jacket on and she was baptized weeks before. Do you think it is right that pastors like him (who had refused ordination in the SDA church) should have the power to do things like this? Forcing his own agenda down the throats of the laity?

These things are the abominations that we are supposed to be sighing and crying for.

The church is an army. There is an order to the army. There is the Commander in chief, then the secretary of defense, then the generals, then the Captains and so on.

Does the General have the same responsibilities as a Captain?

We all have been given a role to serve in the church, the question is, are you going to listen to the Commander in cheif, or are you going to be courtmartialed?

When Paul said that a Bishop (Overseer)is supposed to be;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)1 Timothy 3:4-5

Doesn't this not directly imply that the way the overseer's home is governed is directly applicable to the governance of the church?

And the same word is used for women to be in subjection to their husbands. Are you saying that Paul is not saying children should be in subjection their fathers? Are you going to free the kids from the tyrany of adult supervision? That is the mindset of the world and that is exactly what is happening in the church in America right now.

In another local church they had what was called "crowded room" where they let the kids set up loud guitar amps and drums on the stage where the altar for the communion was pushed up against the back wall and the singer would stand where the sermon was given, and totally get wicked in their music without any supervision, the pastor would come in and say a prayer then let the kids destroy the place in the sanctuary while he wrote his sermon in his office. This went on for three years until someone got pregnant and another girl was abused by a boy.

Do you think children should not be under subjection to their parents? Then why would Paul say the same words for women? Do you think he was trying to be mean? He said it was a command of God!

Look to the first sin of Eve and that is all the biblical proof you need that things would have been a lot better if the woman would have remained by the side of the husband. But this did not happen so what did God say as part of the curse?

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Genesis 3:16

Are you saying we are no longer under subjection to the curse? You do realize that the curse is a blessing to those who LISTEN to the commands of God don't you?

You are making the curse into a literal curse by trying to do away with the commands God established to govern the church. Women are coveting the position God gave to men, but God said they shalt rule over thee until the end for a blessing for the church. If you cannot see this it is because you do not accept the words of God and your are under the curse.

But men also make the curse into a literal curse by being oppressive to women, this is the problem with sin. But a true man of God will not opress the women under his authority. Get it? If the men are guided by the Holy Spirit the curse becomes a blessing. If the women are guided by the holy Spirit the family and church is stronger. They are used by the authority of God to bring blessings.

Say a woman is smarter than the husband, which admittedly is the case more times than not these days...

If she is wise, she uses her authority to bring peace to the family and strengthens her husband through wise counsel. If he rejects this, that makes him a fool and the family will suffer. But if he accepts her counsel the family is blessed because the one in charge listened to the wisdom the wife received from God. There is no shame in this.

But There is shame for the foolish and wicked husband who will not receive the counsel and governs with an iron fist. The church should get involved then and give counsel, but if he will not listen then his motivations are exposed and he loses his ministry.

The wife should have never made a covenant with such a man and she pays for it the rest of her days. This is a warning against hasty mariages. Do you think she should break the command of God and divorce him so she can remarry? That is what a worldly woman would do, and she is no more under the guidance of the Holy Spirit than the man is.

Why are so many foolish people, who are almost a majority in the corporate church right now, saying lets do away with the guidance given by God and follow our own cousel?

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****** STAFF EDIT ****** Here Peter quotes the ****** STAFF EDIT ****** prophet Joel:


God has ordained both men AND women equally to minister to His people. If you refuse the guidance HE has given, then say so; and we will understand.

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