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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164635
05/01/14 04:19 AM
05/01/14 04:19 AM
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Banned
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APL did you read beyond those first words? Jesus experienced our sins through the propitiation. The literal transference of our sin to His mind, He became sin for us. He did not commit those sins Himself, but He literally walked before the wrath of God with our sins upon His heart like He committed them himself. That is the level of self denial He wrought for us. Here is what Joe Crews said about this propitiation... From his book "the High Cost of the Cross". "The question is; how does Christ's death make it possible for Him to forgive sin? This brings us to the crux of all we have learned so far. It was necessary for Jesus to suffer the second death in order to acquire the power to forgive. The germ of all forgiveness is rooted in an act of substitution. Whoever forgives another person must actually substitute himself for the one he forgives, and be willing to suffer the consequences of the wrong done... This illustration brings us very close to the heart of the atonement. The punishment for sin is not the first death, but the second death. That is why the protracted agony of Jesus on the cross was totally unlike any other death. Thousands of criminals were crucified in the same physical way that Christ was nailed to the cross, but they suffered only the bodily pain of the first death. He experienced the awful condemnation and separation from God that the vilest of sinners will feel in the lake of fire. His sensitive nature was traumatized by sharing vicariously the guilt of foul rapes, murders, and atrocities. He became sin in order to allow the full wrath of the law to fall upon Him in exactly the same way it would fall upon the lost. In no other way can we explain the mysterious anguish of spirit which surrounded our Savior in His closing hours of life. From the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus bore the accumulated sins of mankind on His breaking heart. Not one ray of light was permitted to penetrate the blanket of total alienation from His Father in heaven. In order to take the place of guilty sinners and to provide forgiveness there could be no difference in their penalty and His penalty." Jesus experienced our sins on His own mind. He saw EVERYTHING we have or ever will do like He was the one who did it. He experienced our shame so He could take our penalty. And He did this for EVERY person who has ever lived. Imagine the sin of several billion people on the soul of the perfect man who had never experienced sin before. Each sin was terror for His soul. Jesus died the second death for us all, and as soon as men try to wrap their minds around this they will see the nakedness of their shame and be truly converted. “The garden of Eden with its foul blot of disobedience is to be carefully studied and compared with the garden of Gethsemane where the world’s Redeemer suffered superhuman agony when the sins of the whole world were rolled upon Him.” {Ms 1, 1892} This is a faithful witness in the name of Christ amen. http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164641
05/01/14 04:02 PM
05/01/14 04:02 PM
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OP
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Arnold, the answer to all your questions is - Yes! Not only did Jesus have sin in His sinful flesh (just like born-again believes) He also became sin for us. "For he hath made him to be sin for us". No, Jesus did not cultivate sinful old man habits. However, He inherited the same sinful inclinations, tendencies, propensities born-again believers retain when they experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in God's appointed way. It is sinful flesh that tempts from within. Sinful flesh cannot sin. It can only tempt. It is not a sin to be tempted. Jesus also inherited the same defects, weaknesses, imperfections born-again believers retain when they experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in God's appointed way. Having defects, weaknesses, imperfections is not the same thing as cherishing them or acting them out in thought, word, or deed. It is not a sin to have them. No guilt is imputed. The idea that Jesus had an advantage not available to born-again believers is false. The truth is - "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} "Human nature is vile, and man's character must be changed before it can harmonize with the pure and holy in God's immortal kingdom. This transformation is the new birth." {2SP 133.1} The following quotes describe the nature born-again believers receive when they experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in God's appointed way.: God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {FLB 87.3}
Your nature must be changed, and there must be a transformation of the entire being. {2T 686.1}
The power of truth is to transform heart and character. Its effect is not like a dash of color here and there upon the canvas; the whole character is to be transformed, the image of Christ is to be revealed in words and actions. A new nature is imparted. Man is renewed after the image of Christ in righteousness and true holiness. {6BC 1117.15}
Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Romans 8:7; Matthew 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}
The regenerating influence of the Holy Spirit renewed his heart. The power of the love of Christ wrought a transformation of character. This is the sure result of union with Jesus. When Christ abides in the heart, the whole nature is transformed. Christ's Spirit, His love, softens the heart, subdues the soul, and raises the thoughts and desires toward God and heaven. {SC 73.1}
Would it not be better to consider the wonderful, miracle-working power of God in the transformation of poor degraded sinners, who have been full of moral pollution, who become changed so that they are Christ-like in character, partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust? {RH, August 15, 1893 par. 6}
Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. But provision is made for the repenting sinner, so that by faith in the atonement of the only begotten Son of God, he may receive forgiveness of sin, find justification, receive adoption into the heavenly family, and become an inheritor of the kingdom of God. Transformation of character is wrought through the operation of the Holy Spirit, which works upon the human agent, implanting in him, according to his desire and consent to have it done, a new nature. The image of God is restored to the soul, and day by day he is strengthened and renewed by grace, and is enabled more and more perfectly to reflect the character of Christ in righteousness and true holiness. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7} The quotes above also describe the human nature Jesus inherited when He became a human.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: asygo]
#164643
05/01/14 05:14 PM
05/01/14 05:14 PM
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Jesus, the omnipotent God, was called to subject Himself to His equal. Arnold, Christ has always been subject to God the Father, the Ancient of Days. ___________________
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164646
05/01/14 08:12 PM
05/01/14 08:12 PM
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Yes! Not only did Jesus have sin in His sinful flesh[/u] (just like born-again believes) He also became sin for us. "For he hath made him to be sin for us". This is heresy, plain and simple. "In the Word of God the honest seeker for truth will find the rule for genuine sanctification. The apostle says: “There is therefore now [u]no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.... For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you” (Romans 8:1-9).{FW 97.2} You are saying Jesus was in "HIS sinful flesh". But He walked always in the Spirit, continually. So the bible says He was not IN the flesh because He continually walked in the Spirit like Adam before his fall. He was even in the Spirit OF CHRIST when He took on our sins upon His head. He did not yield up His PERFECTION of being Christ when He took our sins upon His head. Christ is the anointed. The sin bearer. So when He was carrying our sins He was the PERFECT CHRIST. Carrying and experiencing our sins did not make Him in the flesh because He continually looked to heaven while carrying the sins. The angel was there to strengthen Him when He was about to die. That means He was still filled with the Holy Spirit. The Father could not reveal Himself to Him but He was there throughout the whole process. Jesus was the high priest CARRYING our sins, not dwelling in the sinful flesh. He had to experience the wrath of the Father for our sins but He was not in the flesh when He did that or He would have IMMEDIATELY been crushed to death. If He would have stood before the wrath of the Father in the flesh He would have been immediately destroyed. ***** STAFF EDIT TO REMOVE INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT *****
Last edited by Daryl; 05/02/14 05:49 PM. Reason: Staff Edit to remove inappropriate content.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: gordonb1]
#164647
05/01/14 08:16 PM
05/01/14 08:16 PM
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Banned
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Jesus, the omnipotent God, was called to subject Himself to His equal. Arnold, Christ has always been subject to God the Father, the Ancient of Days. ___________________ Neither of you are correct. Jesus has always been the EQUAL to the Father forever. But He subjected Himself to the Father when in human form. John 17 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: gordonb1]
#164650
05/01/14 11:17 PM
05/01/14 11:17 PM
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Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015
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Jesus, the omnipotent God, was called to subject Himself to His equal. Arnold, Christ has always been subject to God the Father, the Ancient of Days. ___________________ "Jesus claimed equal rights with God in doing a work equally sacred, and of the same character with that which engaged the Father in heaven. But the Pharisees were still more incensed. He had not only broken the law, according to their understanding, but in calling God “His own Father” had declared Himself equal with God. John 5:18, R. V.{DA 207.3} "Jesus could give alone security to God; for He was equal with God. He alone could be a mediator between God and man; for He possessed divinity and humanity. Jesus could thus give security to both parties for the fulfillment of the prescribed conditions. As the Son of God He gives security to God in our behalf, and as the eternal Word, as one equal with the Father, He assures us of the Father’s love to usward who believe His pledged word. When God would assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, He gives His only begotten Son to become one of the human family, forever to retain His human nature as a pledge that God will fulfil His word.—The Review and Herald, April 3, 1894.{7ABC 488.4} The reconciliation of man to God could be accomplished only through a mediator who was equal with God, possessed of attributes that would dignify, and declare Him worthy to treat with the Infinite God in man’s behalf, and also represent God to a fallen world. Man’s substitute and surety must have man’s nature, a connection with the human family whom He was to represent, and, as God’s ambassador, He must partake of the divine nature, have a connection with the Infinite, in order to manifest God to the world, and be a mediator between God and man."—The Review and Herald, December 22, 1891.{7ABC 488.5} I could quote about a hundred other texts that prove you are both wrong. "In the words of David referred to by Peter—“ The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool,” the Father is called Lord, who said unto Christ, who is also Lord, and equal with the Father, “Sit thou on my right hand.” “Therefore,” said Peter, “let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”{3SP 271.1} David called the Messiah, in his divine character, Lord, although, after the flesh, he was the son of David by direct descent. David, by prophetic foresight, saw Christ enter into the heavens, and take his position at the right hand of God. The demonstration witnessed by the Jews at the Pentecost was an exhibition of the power of that very Jesus whom the priests and rulers had contemptuously rejected and crucified. According to his promise he had sent the Holy Spirit from Heaven to his followers, as a token that he had, as priest and king, received all authority in Heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over his people.{3SP 271.2} If Jesus has all authority in heaven and He has been made king, then what position does the Father have? You all reveal how little you know about God. Mt Man... "Lord, although, after the flesh, he was the son of David by direct descent" Do you see the word "sinful" here? Adam had righteous flesh until he sinned. Where in the Spirit of Prophecy or in scripture do you ever find the name of Jesus associated with "his sinful flesh"? If Jesus had never fallen then it is impossible for Him to have SINFUL FLESH!
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164653
05/02/14 03:28 AM
05/02/14 03:28 AM
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Banned
SDA
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I miss read what asygo said, he is correct, gordonb was wrong
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164655
05/02/14 08:03 AM
05/02/14 08:03 AM
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SDA
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Posts: 5,583
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"Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery"
Did Jesus strive against His old habits? Think carefully on this one. What were Christ's old habits? Arnold, the answer to all your questions is - Yes! ... No, Jesus did not cultivate sinful old man habits. I hope you see that you can't get very far before you must recant the idea that Jesus walked the same exact path that we do. All you have to see is that we have fallen short of God's glory while Jesus was always the perfect embodiment of God's glory. Jesus never had the old sinful habits that we battle. No matter how many quotes you find, this one fact will always disprove the idea that He was just like us: All have sinned except Jesus. Unless you can get rid of that exception, the only hope for your position is to obscure it. So let's cut to the chase. If you can give even one example of a born-again believer who does not have old habits to confess and conquer, then you have a basis for your argument. But without that, you're simply beating the air. Rather than spending your strength trying to prove that He was what we are, you can spend it convincing sinners that we can receive as a gift what He was so that we will not remain what we are.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164659
05/02/14 03:26 PM
05/02/14 03:26 PM
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OP
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I hope you see that you can't get very far before you must recant the idea that Jesus walked the same exact path that we do. I'm not arguing this point. I am arguing against it. We both agree Jesus did not come in sinful flesh to demonstrate how to sin and repent. Jesus came in sinful flesh to demonstrate how to grow in grace and how to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Born-again believers duplicate Jesus' righteousness and true holiness while they are abiding in Him. It is true even though their sinful flesh wars against them, even though they have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections. Why? Because they do not act them out. They subdue them and subject them to the powers of a sanctified will and mind. While abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit, while living in the mind of the new man they do not, cannot sin. Nor are they guilty of sin. They stand before God in the same state and status as did Jesus. Their old man habits of sin have been crucified. Selfishness has been expelled. In every way they reflect the glory of God as did Jesus. "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ." {6BC 1101.1} "The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man." {SD 300.3} The fact sinful flesh remains to tempt and annoy, after converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded, is not cause for guilt. Sinful "flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." {AH 127} It can only tempt and clamor. So long as truly, thoroughly, genuinely converted Christians do not act out the unholy desires of their sinful flesh they are guiltless and successful in the sight of God. Their service and allegiance is acceptable and well-pleasing to Him. They are pure "even as he is pure." They are righteous "even as he is righteous." They are "perfect and complete in all the will of God." They stand before God as did Jesus.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164666
05/02/14 04:37 PM
05/02/14 04:37 PM
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SDA
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Born-again believers duplicate Jesus' righteousness and true holiness while they are abiding in Him. ... They stand before God as did Jesus. I will have to disagree. "The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God." {1SM 344.2} Even "true believers" fall short. Jesus never needed an external source of incense to make His offerings acceptable to God.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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