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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: gordonb1] #165507
05/29/14 04:09 PM
05/29/14 04:09 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Unfortunately the thread title is misleading.
Christ came to vindicate His Father's Law.

"Amid the awful glory of Sinai, Christ declared
in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts
of His Father's law." (Patriarchs & Prophets 366)
___________________________________

What did you think of the previous lesson on God's law vs Christ's law? Do you believe they are different? Or is Christ's law the same as His Father's law?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165508
05/29/14 05:00 PM
05/29/14 05:00 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
"Grace not only frees us from the condemnation of the law, but it enables us to keep the law in the way that we are called to do."

I remember reading that, and I wasn't comfortable with it. Does grace enable US to KEEP the law as GOD requires? Or does grace enable us to RECEIVE CHRIST'S acceptable obedience as ours? Yes, grace teaches us to live godly lives, but is our godliness acceptable as-is?

Isn't it both? Grace enables us to receive Christ's acceptable obedience as ours (justification - pardon - it doesn't involve our works) and it enables us to keep the law as God requires (sanctification - it involves our works). Of course our imperfect obedience in sanctification is also covered by Christ's perfect obedience to be acceptable (as per the famous quote: "O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ." {AG 154.5}), but it is then considered perfect - as God requires.
WDYT?

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165513
05/29/14 08:29 PM
05/29/14 08:29 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Originally Posted By: asygo
What did you think of the previous lesson on God's law vs Christ's law? Do you believe they are different? Or is Christ's law the same as His Father's law?

Hi Arnold, on the face of it, one would be presumptuous to consider another law (or another gospel) than the Ten Commandments established by Christ's Father, the Ancient of Days.
As God is perfect, so must be His Law for His Creation.

Christ's mission as the Angel of God (Ex. 14:19), aka the Angel of the Covenant, was to vindicate His Father's Law. As God's chief Messenger (at the same time God's Son!), it's unlikely that He changed His tune. A faithful messenger delivers the message, even if it costs his life.

(see Hebrew #4397)

But I have not read the lesson, so will have a look.
_______________________________

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165517
05/30/14 12:40 AM
05/30/14 12:40 AM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,451
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
It seems the lesson is implying that the law can be fulfilled BY us if we have grace. Is anyone else getting the same thing?

I think the lesson is saying that grace is both God's unmerited gift of eternal life and God's enabling us to do His will. It says:
"Grace not only frees us from the condemnation of the law, but it enables us to keep the law in the way that we are called to do."

I remember reading that, and I wasn't comfortable with it. Does grace enable US to KEEP the law as GOD requires? Or does grace enable us to RECEIVE CHRIST'S acceptable obedience as ours? Yes, grace teaches us to live godly lives, but is our godliness acceptable as-is?

The leason seems to swing from one side to the other, rather than keeping an even keel.


It is grace that is the regenerating power that transforms the character.

Grace forgives - justifies and removes our unworthiness to be in connection with God, and imputes Christ's worthiness to us, so we can be in communion with God!
Grace gives us the Holy Spirit so we can walk in newness of life as we are lead by His Spirit!
Grace regenerates and transforms our character.

Thus yes, by God's grace we live according to God's law. Not that we earn any merit, but because God's grace is active in our lives.

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

"we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165519
05/30/14 01:52 AM
05/30/14 01:52 AM
dedication  Online Content OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,451
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Unfortunately the thread title is misleading.
Christ came to vindicate His Father's Law.


What did you think of the previous lesson on God's law vs Christ's law? Do you believe they are different? Or is Christ's law the same as His Father's law?


I was a little surprised there was an implied thought in the lesson putting a difference between Christ's law and God's law. I do not believe there is a difference.

Jesus said: "I and my Father are One". John 10:30
They don't have different laws.
To keep the law of God is to keep the law of Christ; and to keep the law of Christ is to keep the law of God.

The only difference is that Christ came and demonstrated the keeping of that law.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165534
05/30/14 04:59 PM
05/30/14 04:59 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Quote:
"Grace not only frees us from the condemnation of the law, but it enables us to keep the law in the way that we are called to do."

I remember reading that, and I wasn't comfortable with it. Does grace enable US to KEEP the law as GOD requires? Or does grace enable us to RECEIVE CHRIST'S acceptable obedience as ours? Yes, grace teaches us to live godly lives, but is our godliness acceptable as-is?

Isn't it both? Grace enables us to receive Christ's acceptable obedience as ours (justification - pardon - it doesn't involve our works) and it enables us to keep the law as God requires (sanctification - it involves our works). Of course our imperfect obedience in sanctification is also covered by Christ's perfect obedience to be acceptable (as per the famous quote: "O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ." {AG 154.5}), but it is then considered perfect - as God requires.
WDYT?

I believe we are on the same page.

Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

How does that sound?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165541
05/31/14 02:27 AM
05/31/14 02:27 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

What does this mean: "AND of His fullness we have all received, AND grace for grace" (John 1:16)? What does "AND grace for grace" mean?

///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165585
06/01/14 02:37 PM
06/01/14 02:37 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

How does that sound?

It seems we are in agreement.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165595
06/02/14 10:20 AM
06/02/14 10:20 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: asygo

Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

How does that sound?


AMEN!


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165602
06/02/14 03:32 PM
06/02/14 03:32 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

How does that sound?


John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

Are you saying that the work through us and in us is imperfect such that we will only give imperfect obedience? Is the covering of Christ a cloak for iniquity?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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