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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166242
06/27/14 10:48 AM
06/27/14 10:48 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Are we to be more afraid of God than Satan?


Originally Posted By: Jesus
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)


Satan can only destroy your body. He cannot forcibly destroy your soul. The best he can do is tempt you down the wrong path. If you let him persuade you, you effectively choose hell for yourself, and destroy your own opportunity for eternal life. Your soul, however, cannot be destroyed by Satan, nor by fellow man. God will settle matters of the soul in hell.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166247
06/27/14 01:56 PM
06/27/14 01:56 PM
K
kland  Offline
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How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom.
...
Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator.
{GC 535.2}


It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. {GC 536.2}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166257
06/27/14 04:08 PM
06/27/14 04:08 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Good News!!! God will destroy you! God will kill you! God is the one to be feared, not Satan. NO NO NO.

John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Green, I thought you were a KJV and a KJV only person. Why then do you adopt the modern translations on this text? The KJV shows the truth! Is "him" capitalized" Nope. What does that tell you? It is not God that is to be feared. IT IS YOU. Yourself! Continue reading in Matthew 10.

Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear you not therefore, you are of more value than many sparrows.

FEAR YOU NOT!

Here is what EGW has to say, what do you think? All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. Good advice, do not agree? Continue reading: It is not because of any decree that God has sent out against man. He does not make man spiritually blind. God gives sufficient light and evidence to enable man to distinguish truth from error. But He does not force man to receive truth. He leaves him free to choose the good or the choose the evil. If man resists evidence that is sufficient to guide his judgment in the right direction, and chooses evil once, he will do this more readily the second time. The third time he will still more eagerly withdraw himself from God and choose to stand on the side of Satan. And in this course he will continue until he is confirmed in evil, and believes the lie he has cherished as truth. His resistance has produced its harvest. By his example he leads others to follow the same course of resistance against God. {2SAT 183.4}

God destroys no man. All who are destroyed, destroy themselves.

Quiz: who are we to fear who will destroy both body and soul?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #166269
06/27/14 05:35 PM
06/27/14 05:35 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Good News!!! God will destroy you! God will kill you! God is the one to be feared, not Satan. NO NO NO.

John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Green, I thought you were a KJV and a KJV only person. Why then do you adopt the modern translations on this text? The KJV shows the truth! Is "him" capitalized" Nope. What does that tell you? It is not God that is to be feared. IT IS YOU. Yourself! Continue reading in Matthew 10.

Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear you not therefore, you are of more value than many sparrows.

FEAR YOU NOT!

Here is what EGW has to say, what do you think? All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. Good advice, do not agree? Continue reading: It is not because of any decree that God has sent out against man. He does not make man spiritually blind. God gives sufficient light and evidence to enable man to distinguish truth from error. But He does not force man to receive truth. He leaves him free to choose the good or the choose the evil. If man resists evidence that is sufficient to guide his judgment in the right direction, and chooses evil once, he will do this more readily the second time. The third time he will still more eagerly withdraw himself from God and choose to stand on the side of Satan. And in this course he will continue until he is confirmed in evil, and believes the lie he has cherished as truth. His resistance has produced its harvest. By his example he leads others to follow the same course of resistance against God. {2SAT 183.4}

God destroys no man. All who are destroyed, destroy themselves.

Quiz: who are we to fear who will destroy both body and soul?


I don't understand why you choose to misrepresent me. You posted the exact-same "non-KJV" text that I posted (KJV). I never capitalized the "him" in the verse, as you implied. However, I could have. It would have been true. Look at what Mrs. White says in The Desire of Ages about those words of our dear Lord.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...And no man can be true to principle without exciting opposition. A Christianity that is spiritual will be opposed by the children of disobedience. But Jesus bade His disciples, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Those who are true to God need not fear the power of men nor the enmity of Satan. In Christ their eternal life is secure. Their only fear should be lest they surrender the truth, and thus betray the trust with which God has honored them. {DA 356.1}


If we are not to fear either men or Satan, God is the only one left to whom this would apply.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.


APL,

I am solemnly impressed that the following applies to the relationship I have with you.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
There is no greater evidence that Satan is working than that those who profess to be sanctified to God's service persecute their fellow beings because they do not believe the same doctrine that they themselves believe. These will rush with fury against God's people, stating as true that which they know to be untrue. Thus they show that they are inspired by him who is an accuser of the brethren, and a murderer of the saints of God. But if God permits tyrants to do with us as the priests did with His Son, shall we give up our faith, and go back to perdition? It is not because God does not care for us that He permits these things to be; for He declares, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints" (Psalm 116:15). {TDG 371.2}

With Satan at their head to imbue them with his spirit, men may afflict God's people, they may cause pain to the body, they may take away their temporal life, but they cannot touch the life that is hid with Christ. We are not our own. Soul and body, we have been bought with the price paid on the cross of Calvary; and we are to remember that we are in the hands of Him who created us. Whatever Satan may inspire evil men to do, we are to rest in the assurance that we are under God's charge, and that by His Spirit He will strengthen us to endure. . . . {TDG 371.3}

The time is soon to come when the Lord will say, "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain" (Isaiah 26:20, 21). {TDG 371.4}

Those who love God need not be surprised if those who claim to be Christians are filled with hatred because they cannot force the consciences of God's people. Not long hence they will stand before the Judge of all the earth, to render an account for the pain they have caused to the bodies and souls of God's heritage.--Review and Herald, Dec. 28, 1897. {TDG 371.5}


I am told not to be surprised when others misrepresent me or persecute me--even though they be fellow church members. My soul and body are in His hands. He alone can create a soul, and He alone destroy it forever. Men destroy their own souls by the choices they make during their temporal life. But they cannot be successful in destroying themselves forever. God can raise them again for punishment, and He will. He will then render eternal justice.

Jesus tells us Whom to fear.

Originally Posted By: Jesus
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


And who has "power" enough "to cast into hell?"

Originally Posted By: Jesus
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Satan does not have these keys, Jesus does. We don't have these keys either--nor do the angels of Heaven. Only Jesus holds the keys "of hell and of death." His will be the duty of executing final judgment...His "strange act," as it is called, for He does not delight in it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #166270
06/27/14 05:38 PM
06/27/14 05:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
It comes down to the question, is sin fatal? Obviously not, God has to kill the sinner. God is the problem! NO. Sin is fatal.

Jesus had to prevent sinners from accessing and eating the fruit of the tree of life. Why? Because they would live forever. If sin is fatal there would be no need to deny sinners the tree of life.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166276
06/27/14 06:16 PM
06/27/14 06:16 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
MM - what killed Christ? The Father? No. Sin killed the Son of God. Sin is ultimately fatal. And the fatal effects of sin can be removed only by the provision that God has made.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166280
06/27/14 06:35 PM
06/27/14 06:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Actually, I don't believe anything or anyone killed Jesus on the cross. I believe He tasted, consumed, and conquered our sin and second death. Afterward, He laid down His own life and took it up again on the third day.

I would appreciate you responding to the point I made above regarding sin, death, and the tree of life.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166281
06/27/14 06:39 PM
06/27/14 06:39 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Green, why did the KJV not capitalize "him" in Matthew 10:28?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166286
06/27/14 07:17 PM
06/27/14 07:17 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
I don't understand why you choose to misrepresent me. You posted the exact-same "non-KJV" text that I posted (KJV). I never capitalized the "him" in the verse, as you implied. However, I could have. It would have been true. Look at what Mrs. White says in The Desire of Ages about those words of our dear Lord.
Oh I know which text you posted. I know which version you posted. But what you did was take the modern version's interpretation of the verse. The KJV did not capitalize the word because it did not imply that it was God, but you do!
Originally Posted By: green
If we are not to fear either men or Satan, God is the only one left to whom this would apply.
Again, what did I write? You assume that if it is not men and not Satan, that God is the only one left. But if you read what I wrote this is not the case! It is YOURSELF that you need to fear. As EGW says: All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed.
Originally Posted By: green
I am solemnly impressed that the following applies to the relationship I have with you.
What you are really saying is that I am a liar. Correct?
Originally Posted By: green
I am told not to be surprised when others misrepresent me or persecute me--even though they be fellow church members.
Have I misrepresented you in the recent thread? Have I not stated that you believe that God is the one to fear? Am I wrong? I think not!
Originally Posted By: green
My soul and body are in His hands. He alone can create a soul, and He alone destroy it forever. Men destroy their own souls by the choices they make during their temporal life. But they cannot be successful in destroying themselves forever. God can raise them again for punishment, and He will.
And this is what I find so appalling and so blind to the evidence by one who claims to believe the writings of EGW. She says, "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." But you say we cannot destroy ourselves forever. EGW continues, "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}

You then quote Jesus, here it is:Luke 12:4-5 And I say to you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, which after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, Fear him. You see, men, Satan and God, but do not understand that "him" as one's self. We destroy ourselves. We need to have an intelligence in the agency by which the soul is destroyed.

Yes, Jesus said: Revelation 1:18 I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. You assume that the keys are using to throw people into hell. The keys are used to release us from death, the truth will set you free. Luke 11:52 Woe to you, lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge: you entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in you hindered.

According to EGW, what is the last rays of mercy we are to take to the world? Your view Green? Or my view? I'll take mine. And you are right! Those in the church are the greatest hindrance to the truth.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166287
06/27/14 07:41 PM
06/27/14 07:41 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
All around us we meet people who blame God for deaths and injuries that surround us. Satan would like Christian people to agree with all of these godless people.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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