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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166447
07/01/14 01:27 AM
07/01/14 01:27 AM
APL  Offline
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Tonstad uses the Bible and EGW for his conclusions. You don't have time, but you have time to post here. The Bible means what it means. What is the book of Revelation revealing? Who is the active subject in the Book of Revelation? The usual view is God, as you believe. Consider this from the seals:
Revelation 16:12-16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Is this God or Demonic? This is demonic activity, not God. Who is the acting subject in the plagues? GOD??? NO! The Plagues are a removing of restraint by God! Consider EGW: I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan’s decided attacks upon them. Ellen G. White, {Last Day Events, 242}

The Plagues of God, is the Wrath of God and what is the Wrath of God? His removing His restraining mercy, read Romans 1.

You view MM on the plagues is just as Satan would have it, believing the our Father is the one that causes affection. Again EGW: Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #166456
07/01/14 03:03 PM
07/01/14 03:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
1) Tonstad uses the Bible and EGW for his conclusions. You don't have time, but you have time to post here.

2) Is this God or Demonic? This is demonic activity, not God. Who is the acting subject in the plagues? GOD??? NO! The Plagues are a removing of restraint by God!

3) The Plagues of God, is the Wrath of God and what is the Wrath of God? His removing His restraining mercy, read Romans 1.

4) You view MM on the plagues is just as Satan would have it, believing the our Father is the one that causes affection.

1) I was referring to "my research time" - not time in general. I have time to study with other people.

2) Yes, there are times when Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. "God will use his enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {PC 136.3}

3) Yes, there are times when Jesus employs the forces of nature to punish the impenitent. "The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 11}

4) Yes, there are times when Jesus permits evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to punish the impenitent. However, nature is not self-acting. The forces of nature are dependent upon Jesus, not evil angels, to act. "Nature is not self-acting; it is the servant of its Creator. God does not annul His laws nor work contrary to them; but He is continually using them as His instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active agency, that works in, and through, and above its laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Said Christ, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” {BLJ 241.3}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166457
07/01/14 03:05 PM
07/01/14 03:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, what are the chances you will explain the lake of fire and how sinners will destroys themselves in it?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166458
07/01/14 03:06 PM
07/01/14 03:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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PS - Are you okay with Jesus giving evil men and evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #166460
07/01/14 04:03 PM
07/01/14 04:03 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
PS - Are you okay with Jesus giving evil men and evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
Does the story of Job put God in bad light?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #166462
07/01/14 04:32 PM
07/01/14 04:32 PM
K
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ellen White capitalized the word "Him". She believes it refers to God. I trust her insight.

'Ellen White DID NOT capitalize the word "Him". She believes it DOES NOT refer to God. I trust her insight. '

Quote:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." We are not to think that we can have an easy time. But "what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" We shall have respect unto the recompense of the reward, and esteem the reproaches of Christ greater riches than the treasures of this world. The fear of God should ever be before our eyes, in all our business transactions, in all the concerns of life. We cannot engage in unnecessary traffic with unbelievers without becoming like them in spirit; for by beholding, we become changed. As followers of Christ, we cannot afford to grasp for the wealth of the world. "For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich." Those who would have earthly riches at the expense of heavenly riches, sell themselves at a cheap market. A business man said to my husband, "Elder White, with such powers of mind as you possess, you should not be engaged in the work you are now doing, burying your talents in the service of the Adventists. You should occupy a position where your talent would be recognized and rewarded. I will pay you a large remuneration for your services, if you will engage yourself to me." But my husband said: "If you would heap gold upon this table as high as the ceiling, it would be no temptation to me. I am living for the immortal inheritance, for the eternal substance, for the life that measures with the life of God." If we love Jesus, we shall hold him and his service supreme, and shall desire his approval more than the applause of the whole world. We will not deny our Lord by selling ourselves to the world for any price. "Ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price," even the precious blood of the Son of God. {RH, May 3, 1892 par. 7}

Quote:
Said Christ: "It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {RH, May 24, 1898 par. 14}

Quote:
"It is enough for the disciple," said Christ, "that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {RH, January 24, 1899 par. 10}

Quote:
In rejection of light the hearts of men are hardened, and they finally unite with the agencies of apostasy in a work of compelling the conscience of those who do not agree with them, in persecuting and putting to death those who love God and keep his commandments. But the Lord says to his chosen people: "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; and ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak; for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child; and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake; but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. . . . And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . . Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." {ST, June 18, 1894 par. 9}

Did you provide an example of your selectivity or did you provide an example of inadequate research?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166466
07/01/14 07:21 PM
07/01/14 07:21 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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kland,

Thank you for bringing this issue to light. The very fact that in many places Mrs. White did NOT capitalize the word is a testament to the fact that in her own Bible, it was not capitalized either. This means she used the good old King James Version, and quoted from it. If she happened, then, to capitalize the word in any place where she quoted from her Bible, this would be "added information" that she was giving us. Well, she did, and your accusations against Mike in the post above are baseless, unfounded, and mischaracterizing. Shall I quote your own words back to you?

"Did you provide an example of your selectivity or did you provide an example of inadequate research?"

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Jesus enjoins his disciples to make known to others those truths which he had spoken to their ears alone, saying, "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light; and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the house-tops." Knowing the rebuffs and persecution they are to meet in the ministry upon which they are now about to enter, he strengthens them for their work by assuring them that in all their coming toils and dangers, God will watch over them. They are to go on unmindful of the opposition of men, seeking only to please God in whose hands they are: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {2SP 257.1}


See the above quote on your own CD or HERE ONLINE at your convenience for verification.

I think you owe Mike an apology.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 07/01/14 07:22 PM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166467
07/01/14 07:30 PM
07/01/14 07:30 PM
APL  Offline
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I think Green is evading the question. In Matthew 10:28, is the "him" in question God or not? Green says it is. Based on what from the text? There is nothing in the text to make that distinction. The new translations make it abundantly clear who they THINK the "him" refers to. Green agrees with the new translations. The KJV, just reading the text, does not necessarily mean God and in fact, reading the following verses makes it clear to me that the "him" in question is NOT God.

So who is it? It is not men. It is not Satan. It is not God. Who does that leave? EGW tells us we must have an intelligent understand as what agency is the one that destroys the soul. And she is abundantly clear in the quote I provided who that is. And it is NOT God. Who is it?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #166469
07/01/14 07:47 PM
07/01/14 07:47 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
I think Green is evading the question. In Matthew 10:28, is the "him" in question God or not? Green says it is. Based on what from the text? There is nothing in the text to make that distinction. The new translations make it abundantly clear who they THINK the "him" refers to. Green agrees with the new translations. The KJV, just reading the text, does not necessarily mean God and in fact, reading the following verses makes it clear to me that the "him" in question is NOT God.

So who is it? It is not men. It is not Satan. It is not God. Who does that leave? EGW tells us we must have an intelligent understand as what agency is the one that destroys the soul. And she is abundantly clear in the quote I provided who that is. And it is NOT God. Who is it?


So, you don't believe Mrs. White. She capitalized the "Him," making it clear Who it refers to. But, you prefer to think that you know better than she does. At least you are clear.

I have her words on the subject, which is clear to me. I don't need to argue with you or anyone else about it, because you will soon enough know the truth. Jesus' coming is near. Everyone will fear and tremble before Him. Even the righteous will be saying "who shall be able to stand?"

Who among us will be able? Solemn question.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166472
07/01/14 08:26 PM
07/01/14 08:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Did you provide an example of your selectivity or did you provide an example of inadequate research?

"Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him." Can Satan kill himself and then cast himself into hell?

Quote:
Jesus enjoins his disciples to make known to others those truths which he had spoken to their ears alone, saying, "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light; and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the house-tops." Knowing the rebuffs and persecution they are to meet in the ministry upon which they are now about to enter, he strengthens them for their work by assuring them that in all their coming toils and dangers, God will watch over them. They are to go on unmindful of the opposition of men, seeking only to please God in whose hands they are: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." {2SP 257.1}

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Christ has purchased the entire being, mind, soul, and body. The price of man's redemption has been paid, and all he has and is should be sprinkled with the blood of Christ, dedicated to God; for it belongs to Him. Our motto should be, "I am not my own; for I have been bought with a price." {ST, August 1, 1900 par. 5}

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him. Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Luke 12:3-7. {EW 28.1}

And the plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him. {11MR 355.1}

Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages posted above?

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