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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166519
07/02/14 06:41 PM
07/02/14 06:41 PM
APL  Offline
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MM - - <APL>

The links access the same page. No problem.
<ah - different parts of the thread - but that's ok> Perhaps you don't know this about me - I believe Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. He uses His enemies to punish impenitent sinners. He uses evil men and evil angels. He also uses holy men and holy angels. <you also have said that God causes sickness, disease and death>

How do you feel about Jesus withdrawing and permitting men and angels to afflict and kill impenitent sinners? Would you prefer it if He allowed sin to run its natural course instead?
<ah MM - IT IS THE SAME THING> For example, let their sinful lifestyle choices end their lives naturally (i.e. accident, cancer, heart disease, etc) instead of commanding men and/or angels to kill them prematurely.

How do you feel about Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be afflicted and killed? For example, drunk drivers who kill people for reasons unrelated to any sins they may be guilty of (i.e. telling a white lie does not naturally result in dying at the hands of a drunk driver [as opposed to excessive drinking naturally results in cirrhosis of the liver]).
<Do you believe in free choice? Could God have prevented the death of men, women and children by a drunk driver? What would it have taken? Stop the alcoholic from drinking? Prevent the sale of intoxicants? Prevent the transport of said intoxicants? Prevent the brewing of them? Prevent the growing of the raw ingredients? Prevent the sale of farming equipment that is used in the growing of the them? How far do you want to go? It is sin all along the way that is the problem. Sin that causes greed and selfishness. Sin is destructive to all that it touches. Sin is the problem that needs to be dealt with. God does not force the sinner, the use of force is not a principle of God's government. This is the great controversy!>

EGW: From {RH September 7, 1897 - Article titled: The Great Controversy}
It was most difficult to make the deceiving power of Satan apparent. ... As one in holy office, he <Satan> manifested an overbearing desire for justice, but it was a counterfeit of justice, which was entirely contrary to God's love and compassion and mercy. ... Many place such confidence in their own ideas that they present their theories as if they could make no mistake. ... How can these deluded ones think that they are the only ones led and taught of God? When this spirit is manifested, what can be done? You cannot convince them, because they say, "God has led me." ...

Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth.
But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All <ALL> the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation.

They must accept God's principles, and, through the presentation of truth and righteousness, convince all who were in his service. This was the only power to be used. Force must never come in. ... Nothing is to be done by compulsion. ... But when those who profess to be in God's service resort to accusation, they are adopting Satan's principles to cast out Satan; and this never will work. ... The principles of righteousness expressed in God's law must be demonstrated as unchangeable, perfect, eternal. ...

The Lord Jesus Christ revealed a character entirely opposite to that of Satan. ... By causing the death of the Sovereign of heaven, Satan defeated his own purpose. The death of the Son of God made the death of Satan unavoidable. He was allowed to go on until his administration was laid open before the worlds unfallen and before the heavenly universe. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he uprooted himself from the affections of the unfallen beings. He was seen by all to be a liar, a thief, and a murderer.

Today Satan is working upon human minds by his crooked principles. These will be adopted and acted upon by some who claim to be loyal and true to God's government. How shall we know that they are disloyal and untrue?--"By their fruits ye shall know them." God does not force any one. He leaves all free to choose.

Individually, we are deciding our eternal destiny, <we are the ones that destroy our souls in hell> deciding whether we shall enjoy the highest honor that can be given to man, even an eternal weight of glory, or be ranked with Satan by possessing his character, by dishonoring God because we profess to be Christians while misrepresenting Christ. Those who choose to reveal the character of the arch-deceiver identify themselves with him beyond the possibility of a change, because they choose not to see themselves as wrong. This was the course that Satan pursued.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #166520
07/02/14 07:12 PM
07/02/14 07:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: The snakes were in the area. Jesus commanded them to bite specific Jews and not to bite other specific Jews. He sent them on a errand. They obeyed.

A: Of course you can back that up with scripture and EGW.

And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

To punish them for their ingratitude, and complaining against God, the Lord permitted fiery serpents to bite them. {1SP 315.1}

The Lord had hitherto preserved his people from the attacks of these creatures, but he now removed from them his restraining power, that Israel might realize their ingratitude to God, and be led to repentance and humiliation before him. {ST, October 28, 1880 par. 3}

If the people still complained, with all these tokens of his love, the Lord would continue to send judgments upon them, until they should appreciate his merciful care. {ST, October 28, 1880 par. 4}

Their murmuring was a constant offense to God. He saw that they had thrown off all fear of Him, and He permitted fiery serpents to attack them, that they might realize how in the past His power had guarded them from untold dangers. {14MR 345.2}

The same Hand that kept the fiery serpents of the wilderness from entering the camp of the Israelites until God's chosen people provoked Him with their constant murmurs and complaints, is today guarding the honest in heart. Were this restraining Hand withdrawn, the enemy of our souls would at once begin the work of destruction that he has so long desired to accomplish. And because God's long-continued forbearance is not now recognized, the forces of evil are already, to a limited degree, permitted to destroy. How soon human agencies will see blotted out of existence their magnificent buildings, which are their pride! {19MR 281.1}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166521
07/02/14 07:20 PM
07/02/14 07:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The snakes obeyed the will of God and bit the Jews.

This earth is the Lord's. Here it may be seen that nature, animate and inanimate, obeys His will. {5T 311.4}

God requires the service of all his creatures. Everything in nature obeys his will. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 11}

There is much talk about God in nature, as if the Lord were bound by the laws of nature to be nature's servant. Many theories would lead minds to suppose that nature is a self-sustaining agency apart from the Deity, having its own inherent power with which to work. In this men do not know what they are talking about. Do they suppose that nature has a self-existing power without the continual agency of Jehovah? The Lord does not work through His laws to supersede the laws of nature. He does His work through the laws and properties of His instruments, and nature obeys a "Thus saith the Lord." {6T 186.1}

The God of nature is perpetually at work. His infinite power works unseen, but manifestations appear in the effects which the work produces. The same God who guides the planets works in the fruit orchard and in the vegetable garden. He never made a thorn, a thistle, or a tare. These are Satan's work, the result of degeneration, introduced by him among the precious things; but it is through God's immediate agency that every bud bursts into blossom. When He was in the world in the form of humanity, Christ said: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." John 5:17. So when the students employ their time and strength in agricultural work, in heaven it is said of them, Ye "are laborers together with God." 1 Corinthians 3:9. {6T 186.2}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #166522
07/02/14 08:08 PM
07/02/14 08:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: Perhaps you don't know this about me - I believe Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. He uses His enemies to punish impenitent sinners. He uses evil men and evil angels. He also uses holy men and holy angels.

A: You also have said that God causes sickness, disease and death.

Yes, I also believe Jesus, when He chooses to do so, personally punishes people with sickness and death. King Uzziah "was leprous in his forehead . . . because the LORD had smitten him."

Do you agree with the statement above - "Jesus employs the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. He uses His enemies to punish impenitent sinners. He uses evil men and evil angels. He also uses holy men and holy angels."

Originally Posted By: APL
M: How do you feel about Jesus withdrawing and permitting men and angels to afflict and kill impenitent sinners? Would you prefer it if He allowed sin to run its natural course instead? For example, let their sinful lifestyle choices end their lives naturally (i.e. accident, cancer, heart disease, etc) instead of commanding men and/or angels to kill them prematurely.

A: IT IS THE SAME THING

Please explain how it is the same thing. Does telling a white lie naturally result in men and/or angels killing them? What is the cause and consequence relationship?

Originally Posted By: APL
M: How do you feel about Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be afflicted and killed? For example, drunk drivers who kill people for reasons unrelated to any sins they may be guilty of (i.e. telling a white lie does not naturally result in dying at the hands of a drunk driver [as opposed to excessive drinking naturally results in cirrhosis of the liver]).

A: Do you believe in free choice? Could God have prevented the death of men, women and children by a drunk driver? What would it have taken? Stop the alcoholic from drinking? Prevent the sale of intoxicants? Prevent the transport of said intoxicants? Prevent the brewing of them? Prevent the growing of the raw ingredients? Prevent the sale of farming equipment that is used in the growing of the them? How far do you want to go? It is sin all along the way that is the problem. Sin that causes greed and selfishness. Sin is destructive to all that it touches. Sin is the problem that needs to be dealt with. God does not force the sinner, the use of force is not a principle of God's government. This is the great controversy!

There are a bazillion ways Jesus can intervene and prevent death and destruction without violating freewill. You freely confess the truthfulness of this insight every time you quote - "We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. {GC 36.1} "He told them what their fate would have been had He not laid a restraining hand upon that which would have hurt them. {BLJ 66.4}

Or, do you believe Jesus is forbidden to intercede and protect innocent men, women, and children from random acts of violence? Are evil men and evil angels free to torture and kill whoever they please?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166523
07/02/14 08:09 PM
07/02/14 08:09 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Did God create the tares and the thorns? Nope.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166524
07/02/14 08:18 PM
07/02/14 08:18 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: mm
Or, do you believe Jesus is forbidden to intercede and protect innocent men, women, and children from random acts of violence?
There are times when God cannot intercede because of the freewill issue. I'd give you a good lecture on the topic, but I know your time is precious.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #166526
07/02/14 09:16 PM
07/02/14 09:16 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The snakes obeyed the will of God and bit the Jews.

This earth is the Lord's. Here it may be seen that nature, animate and inanimate, obeys His will. {5T 311.4}

God requires the service of all his creatures. Everything in nature obeys his will. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 11}

There is much talk about God in nature, as if the Lord were bound by the laws of nature to be nature's servant. Many theories would lead minds to suppose that nature is a self-sustaining agency apart from the Deity, having its own inherent power with which to work. In this men do not know what they are talking about. Do they suppose that nature has a self-existing power without the continual agency of Jehovah? The Lord does not work through His laws to supersede the laws of nature. He does His work through the laws and properties of His instruments, and nature obeys a "Thus saith the Lord." {6T 186.1}

The God of nature is perpetually at work. His infinite power works unseen, but manifestations appear in the effects which the work produces. The same God who guides the planets works in the fruit orchard and in the vegetable garden. He never made a thorn, a thistle, or a tare. These are Satan's work, the result of degeneration, introduced by him among the precious things; but it is through God's immediate agency that every bud bursts into blossom. When He was in the world in the form of humanity, Christ said: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." John 5:17. So when the students employ their time and strength in agricultural work, in heaven it is said of them, Ye "are laborers together with God." 1 Corinthians 3:9. {6T 186.2}


God had subdued before them the fierce beasts of prey and the venomous reptiles of the forest and the desert. If with all these tokens of His love the people still continued to complain, the Lord would withdraw His protection until they should be led to appreciate His merciful care, and return to Him with repentance and humiliation. {PP 428.3}
Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures.
{PP 429.1}

Now there was terror and confusion throughout the encampment. In almost every tent were the dying or the dead. None were secure. Often the silence of night was broken by piercing cries that told of fresh victims. All were busy in ministering to the sufferers, or with agonizing care endeavoring to protect those who were not yet stricken. No murmuring now escaped their lips. When compared with the present suffering, their former difficulties and trials seemed unworthy of a thought.
{PP 429.2}

The people now humbled themselves before God. They came to Moses with their confessions and entreaties. "We have sinned," they said, "for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee." Only a little before, they had accused him of being their worst enemy, the cause of all their distress and afflictions. But even when the words were upon their lips, they knew that the charge was false; and as soon as real trouble came they fled to him as the only one who could intercede with God for them. "Pray unto the Lord," was their cry, "that He take away the serpents from us."
{PP 429.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166527
07/02/14 09:34 PM
07/02/14 09:34 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
MM: yes, I also believe Jesus, when He chooses to do so, personally punishes people with sickness and death.

EGW: for all sickness is the result of transgression. <sin> {CH 37.3}

sickness, disease, death is all caused by sin. God does not personally inflict any one. But he will withdraw His protection when we demand it. Just as He did with the fiery serpents. The Lord delights in mercy; and for the sake of a few who really serve Him, He restrains calamities and prolongs the tranquillity of multitudes. Little do sinners against God realize that they are indebted for their own lives to the faithful few whom they delight to ridicule and oppress. {GC 631.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #166531
07/02/14 11:14 PM
07/02/14 11:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, you seem to be okay with Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be killed. Freewill is a powerful force - not even Jesus can prevent random acts of violence.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #166532
07/03/14 12:00 AM
07/03/14 12:00 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, you seem to be okay with Jesus permitting innocent men, women, and children to be killed. Freewill is a powerful force - not even Jesus can prevent random acts of violence.


Men on whom devolve grave responsibilities in safeguarding their fellow men from accident and harm, are often untrue to their trust. Because of indulgence in tobacco and liquor, they do not keep the mind clear and composed as did Daniel in the courts of Babylon. They becloud the brain by using stimulating narcotics, and temporarily lose their reasoning faculties. Many a shipwreck upon the high seas can be traced to liquor drinking. Time and again have unseen angels protected vessels on the broad ocean because on board there were some praying passengers who had faith in God's keeping power. <why were they protected?> The Lord has power to hold in abeyance the angry waves so impatient to destroy and engulf His children. {19MR 280.2}

The same Hand that kept the fiery serpents of the wilderness from entering the camp of the Israelites until God's chosen people provoked Him with their constant murmurs and complaints, is today guarding the honest in heart.
Were this restraining Hand withdrawn, the enemy of our souls would at once begin the work of destruction <destruction comes from the Evil one, not God!> that he has so long desired to accomplish. And because God's long-continued forbearance is not now recognized, the forces of evil are already, to a limited degree, permitted to destroy. How soon human agencies will see blotted out of existence their magnificent buildings, which are their pride! {19MR 281.1}

How often have those in danger of being destroyed by terrible outbreakings of winds and waters been mercifully shielded from harm! Do we realize that we have been spared from destruction only because of the protecting care of unseen agencies? Although many ships have gone down and many men and women on board have perished, God has mercifully spared His people.
But we should not be surprised if some of those who love and fear God were to be engulfed in the tempestuous waters of the ocean. <some God fearing people will be taken in the temptest> They would sleep until the Lifegiver comes to give them life. We are not to cast one word of reflection upon God or upon His manner of working. <God is not the destroyer - SIN is the problem> {19MR 281.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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