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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #168497
09/28/14 04:54 PM
09/28/14 04:54 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Which temptations require the muck of sinning?

Temptation from cultivated sins.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Can sinning come from without?

If that's what you mean, then Jesus knows nothing about it, whether from within or without. I think you're just wandering around aimlessly now.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It is not a sin to eat cheese.

New light. You know nothing about it because it's not in the 28.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #168503
09/29/14 12:50 AM
09/29/14 12:50 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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1. It doesn't require sinning to be tempted.
2. Sinning is a choice - not a condition.
3. Not new light. It has never been a sin to eat cheese.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.. [Re: Mountain Man] #168505
09/29/14 02:09 AM
09/29/14 02:09 AM
asygo  Offline
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1. It does for cultivated sins, which Jesus did not have.

2. I think you confused yourself when you switched the subject from temptation to sin, and you're having difficulty recovering. It's a common problem when one attempts a bait and switch. It's ok. You're not the first victim. Just try to keep track of the topic and things tend to stay clearer. Temptation - different kinds from different sources, both from the internal evil of the heart and the external evil of Satan's forces. Sin - three main types: lust of the flesh, lust o the eyes, pride of life.

3. The prophet said we should not do it. If you think it's ok to do it, do so at your own peril. But either it came from a false prophet, or it is one of those things Jesus wants us to do. You decide for yourself if you want to be one of those who does everything Jesus wants them to do. But converted people always do everything Jesus wants them to do all the time, right?

Last edited by asygo; 09/29/14 02:10 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.. [Re: Mountain Man] #168515
09/29/14 12:40 PM
09/29/14 12:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Perhaps we need a break. The discussion is deteriorating into personal attacks and sarcasm - neither of which fit you well.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.. [Re: Mountain Man] #168522
09/29/14 04:13 PM
09/29/14 04:13 PM
asygo  Offline
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I intend no sarcasm or personal attacks. I'm sorry if that's how it came across. I'm just pointing out, as clearly as I can, the pitfalls I see. That you happen to fall into some of them compels me to warn you. If I didn't care about you, I would just leave you alone.

If you're feeling some heat because the comments are getting a bit closer to home than you're comfortable with, perhaps you should consider moving to a new home.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.. [Re: Mountain Man] #168523
09/30/14 01:42 AM
09/30/14 01:42 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Thank you for caring and warning me. However, please chose your words more carefully. Jesus was tempted from within and from without just like born again believers. It is not necessary to cultivate sinful traits or to indulge sinful tendencies to be tempted from within.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.. [Re: Mountain Man] #168528
09/30/14 08:40 AM
09/30/14 08:40 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellen White
... Christ was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. He said, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me" (John 14:30). What does this mean? It means that the prince of evil could find no vantage ground in Christ for his temptation. And so it may be with us.... {TMK 279.3}


Mrs. White points out here that there was "no vantage ground in Christ" for Satan's temptations. This means plenty as relates to this discussion. Remember, there was no sin in Him. If there were also no "vantage ground" for temptation in Him, then could Jesus' flesh have tempted Him?

I think Jesus' temptations were all external. Satan, from outside, could still have tempted Jesus to use His own flesh in a sinful way--such as when Satan tempted Him to satisfy His legitimate hunger after His 40-day fast in an incorrect way, by commanding stones to be made into bread to prove His identity. If He had commanded the stones to be made into bread in a righteous manner, it may not have been sin at all. But to have done so merely to prove His power would have been sinful. Where was the sin? Not in His appetite! The sin would have been in "pride." It is not wrong to be hungry, nor is it wrong to eat for strength when one is famished.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #168532
09/30/14 02:02 PM
09/30/14 02:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Neither is it wrong to be tempted from within. Believers do not incur guilt or condemnation when their sinful flesh tempts them from within to act out their innocent and legitimate appetites and passions in sinful ways. Jesus stood on vantage ground as He overcame temptations. Believers also stand on vantage ground as they resist temptations. Satan finds nothing in them that he can use to his advantage.

Quote:
Many seem to think that it is impossible not to fall under temptation, that they have no power to overcome; and they sin against God with their lips, talking discouragement and doubt, instead of faith and courage. Christ was tempted in all points like we are, yet without sin. He said, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." What does this mean?--It means that the prince of evil could find no vantage ground in Christ for his temptation; and so it may be with us. "For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." {RH, May 19, 1891 par. 3}

"The prince of this world cometh," said Jesus, "and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. There was in Him nothing that responded to Satan's sophistry. He did not consent to sin. Not even by a thought did He yield to temptation. So it may be with us. Christ's humanity was united with divinity; He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He came to make us partakers of the divine nature. So long as we are united to Him by faith, sin has no more dominion over us. God reaches for the hand of faith in us to direct it to lay fast hold upon the divinity of Christ, that we may attain to perfection of character. {DA 123.3}

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. {GC 623.1}

Jesus was tempted from within like born again believers. His victory places them on vantage ground.

Quote:
We must have a Defender, and when our Defender came, He was clothed with humanity; for He must be subject to all the temptations wherewith man is beset, that He might understand how to deliver the godly out of temptation. He took His stand at the head of the fallen race, that men and women might be enabled to stand on vantage ground. {LHU 38.2}

Divine culture brings perfection. If in connection with God the work is carried forward, the human agent, through Christ, will day by day gain victory and honor in the battle. Through the grace given he will overcome, and will be placed on vantage ground. In his relation to Christ he will be bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh, one with Christ in a peculiar relationship, because Christ took the humanity of man. He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, His divine attributes. Satan sought, by the constant and curious devices of his cunning, to make Christ yield to temptation. Man must pass over the ground over which Christ has passed. As Christ overcame every temptation which Satan brought against Him, so man is to overcome. And those who strive earnestly to overcome are brought into a oneness with Christ that the angels in heaven can never know. {7BC 926.5}

The divine culture of men and women will be carried forward to completion only as they are partakers of the divine nature. Thus they may overcome as Christ overcame in their behalf. Through the grace given, fallen man may be placed on vantage ground. Through toil, through patient trust and faith in Jesus Christ, through faithful continuance in well-doing, he may rise to spiritual victory (Letter 5, 1900). {7BC 926.6}

Satan was determined to succeed in his temptation of the sinless Adam and Eve. And he could reach even this holy pair more successfully through the medium of appetite than in any other way. The fruit of the forbidden tree seemed pleasant to the eye and desirable to the taste. They ate and fell. They transgressed God's just command and became sinners. Satan's triumph was complete. He then had the vantage-ground over the race. He flattered himself that, through his subtlety, he had thwarted the purpose of God in the creation of man. {2Red 12.3}

He reinstated man in the position from which Satan had hurled him through temptation and sin, and, by his own perfect obedience to the law of God, placed him on vantage ground. In his death he broke the spell that had held millions in slavery, under perfect subjection to Satan's rule and jurisdiction. {ST, March 26, 1894 par. 6}

By overcoming in man's behalf, He [Christ] was placing fallen man on vantage ground with God. In His human nature Jesus gave evidence that in every temptation wherewith Satan shall assail fallen man, there is help for him in God, if he will take hold of His strength, and through obedience make peace with Him. Jesus stood forth in human nature a conqueror in behalf of the fallen race.--Ms 49, 1897, p. 9. {17MR 24.5}

The fact Satan finds nothing in them he can use to his advantage doesn't mean they are endowed with sinless flesh. It simply means Jesus empowers them to resist the unholy clamorings of their sinful flesh through the same means Jesus resisted them - partaking of the divine nature.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #168533
09/30/14 02:19 PM
09/30/14 02:19 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
What makes flesh "sinful"? You speak of "sinful flesh." What does that mean to you? If it got that way from sinful choices, how did Jesus have it?

What Jesus had was sin-weakened flesh as an inheritance from His sinner-ancestors. He Himself did not in any way further weaken His flesh through sin. He never sinned. How could His flesh tempt Him? It's not a sin to feel tired, or weak, or thirsty, or hungry. It would be a sin to feel depressed, irritated, proud, or angry without just cause. Because these latter feelings are sinful, Jesus never had them. Not a bit of them. His "flesh" could not "feel" any sinful feelings and therefore "tempt" Him, when the sinful feelings were never there to begin with.

So I really do not know why you keep doggedly referring to Jesus' "sinful flesh."

Mrs. White used the same wording that we find in Paul's writings: "the likeness of sinful flesh." Jesus came in a "likeness" of sinful flesh, not in sinful flesh. We are different. In speaking of our flesh, Mrs. White says it more plainly. We have "sinful flesh." She doesn't say Jesus had sinful flesh. She says He came "in the likeness of sinful flesh."

Remember Adam and Eve? They were made in the likeness of God, right? Does that mean that they were the same as God? Obviously not. The word "likeness" does not mean "equal." It means "similar." As such, while Jesus came in flesh that was similar to our sinful flesh, His was not sinful; even as Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of God, but they were not God. That point must be understood before anything else in this topic can approach a correct understanding.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #168542
09/30/14 04:04 PM
09/30/14 04:04 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. It doesn't require sinning to be tempted.
2. Sinning is a choice - not a condition.
3. Not new light. It has never been a sin to eat cheese.
Why do you think it's not a sin to eat cheese?

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