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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: kland] #168839
10/08/14 09:25 PM
10/08/14 09:25 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Let's say my son tells me that his life goal was to hurt, injure, and damage himself before ultimtely committing suicide. On top of that, he will make every effort to hurt, injure, damage, and kill as many as he can in the meantime. I certainly would not be agreeable to such a plan.
OH - You mean like Satan?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: kland] #168844
10/08/14 10:41 PM
10/08/14 10:41 PM
Johann  Offline
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I happen to live in a country where the last execution of a criminal took place on January 12,1830. I have no reason to be at variance with my civil authorities on this question,


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: kland] #168864
10/09/14 09:06 PM
10/09/14 09:06 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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There are some who are at variance with the civil authorities, who want them to kill those who commit certain crimes. What kind of attitude do you think they have towards the one they want killed?

Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: Green Cochoa] #168866
10/10/14 01:24 AM
10/10/14 01:24 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa


That is why God is the Judge. He alone knows the future, and the possibilities for such things as repentance. Will Uzzah be in heaven? He had no opportunity of repenting for his sin in touching the sacred ark. Thank God that He is fair, and all will know so in the end.


And so we should leave it in God's hands.

While I believe civil authorities have a duty to keep their communities reasonably safe -- yes, there is need for law and order --
yet, killing is not the answer. Human justice is frightfully flawed. It is one of religions biggest, darkest, blackest, most inhumane sin in both Muslim and Christian history to go out and kill thinking they are doing God's will and even thinking they are earning heaven by so doing.

Better to engage in prison ministry encouraging the inmates to find Jesus and be changed, than to call up the firing squad that ends someone's probationary time pre-maturely.

Leave the "justice' in God's hands, for He truly knows the heart, He knows the end from the beginning, He has given His life that humans can have eternal life. We can leave it in His hands to accurately, lovingly and fairly give eternal life to all who accept His provision of grace, and leave it in His hands to remove the gift of life from those who have rejected that gift and thus disqualified themselves for eternal life. He alone knows the whole truth.

Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: asygo] #168868
10/10/14 03:08 AM
10/10/14 03:08 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
If you kill someone who disagrees with you, is that showing love or hate?

Let's say my son tells me that his life goal was to hurt, injure, and damage himself before ultimtely committing suicide. On top of that, he will make every effort to hurt, injure, damage, and kill as many as he can in the meantime. I certainly would not be agreeable to such a plan.

What should a loving father do? Should I just beg him to reconsider? Should I just let him hurt and murder me in the hopes that my sacrifice will help him see his errors? If he does not change his mind, should I just wait for him to eventually kill himself, avoiding any kind of force to keep him from hurting himself or others? Should I simply stop providing him the food/water/shelter that he needs to live, knowing that his life depends on my providence?

What is the loving thing to do?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: dedication] #168871
10/10/14 03:55 AM
10/10/14 03:55 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa


That is why God is the Judge. He alone knows the future, and the possibilities for such things as repentance. Will Uzzah be in heaven? He had no opportunity of repenting for his sin in touching the sacred ark. Thank God that He is fair, and all will know so in the end.


And so we should leave it in God's hands.

While I believe civil authorities have a duty to keep their communities reasonably safe -- yes, there is need for law and order --
yet, killing is not the answer. Human justice is frightfully flawed. It is one of religions biggest, darkest, blackest, most inhumane sin in both Muslim and Christian history to go out and kill thinking they are doing God's will and even thinking they are earning heaven by so doing.

Better to engage in prison ministry encouraging the inmates to find Jesus and be changed, than to call up the firing squad that ends someone's probationary time pre-maturely.

Leave the "justice' in God's hands, for He truly knows the heart, He knows the end from the beginning, He has given His life that humans can have eternal life. We can leave it in His hands to accurately, lovingly and fairly give eternal life to all who accept His provision of grace, and leave it in His hands to remove the gift of life from those who have rejected that gift and thus disqualified themselves for eternal life. He alone knows the whole truth.

But, Dedication, what can you say about the fact that God has granted the civil powers authority to do these things? It is part of God's will that the governments of this world exercise their powers of judgment and punishment.

If there is a bad apple in the box, soon the whole box is spoiled. Remove the bad apple, and the rest will keep all winter. God knows that egregious crimes need to be punished. In the case of people, if left long enough (like King Manasseh), some may return to God. But at what cost? Is one soul worth sacrificing multitudes of souls?

Here's Manasseh's story, in brief, from Ellen White.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The kingdom of Judah, prosperous throughout the times of Hezekiah, was once more brought low during the long years of Manasseh's wicked reign, when paganism was revived, and many of the people were led into idolatry. "Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen." 2 Chronicles 33:9. The glorious light of former generations was followed by the darkness of superstition and error. Gross evils sprang up and flourished--tyranny, oppression, hatred of all that is good. Justice was perverted; violence prevailed. {PK 381.1}

Yet those evil times were not without witnesses for God and the right. The trying experiences through which Judah had safely passed during Hezekiah's reign had developed, in the hearts of many, a sturdiness of character that now served as a bulwark against the prevailing iniquity. Their testimony in behalf of truth and righteousness aroused the anger of Manasseh and his associates in authority, who endeavored to establish themselves in evil-doing by silencing every voice of disapproval. "Manasseh shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another." 2 Kings 21:16. {PK 381.2}

One of the first to fall was Isaiah, who for over half a century had stood before Judah as the appointed messenger of Jehovah. "Others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth." Hebrews 11:36-38. {PK 382.1}

Some of those who suffered persecution during Manasseh's reign were commissioned to bear special messages of reproof and of judgment. The king of Judah, the prophets declared, "hath done wickedly above all . . . which were before him." Because of this wickedness, his kingdom was nearing a crisis; soon the inhabitants of the land were to be carried captive to Babylon, there to become "a prey and a spoil to all their enemies." 2 Kings 21:11, 14. But the Lord would not utterly forsake those who in a strange land should acknowledge Him as their Ruler; they might suffer great tribulation, yet He would bring deliverance to them in His appointed time and way. Those who should put their trust wholly in Him would find a sure refuge. {PK 382.2}

Faithfully the prophets continued their warnings and their exhortations; fearlessly they spoke to Manasseh and to his people; but the messages were scorned; backsliding Judah would not heed. As an earnest of what would befall the people should they continue impenitent, the Lord permitted their king to be captured by a band of Assyrian soldiers, who "bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon," their temporary capital. This affliction brought the king to his senses; "he besought the Lord his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers, and prayed unto Him: and He was entreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the Lord He was God." 2 Chronicles 33:11-13. But this repentance, remarkable though it was, came too late to save the kingdom from the corrupting influence of years of idolatrous practices. Many had stumbled and fallen, never again to rise. {PK 382.3}


Note the last two sentences there. Two points are salient there: 1) Manasseh's conversion was "remarkable;" and 2) it came too late to save "many" who would never rise again. In most cases, one so hardened in sin would not convert, even given the opportunity. Furthermore, their evil influence had effected far more bad than perhaps the good of their own salvation could accomplish. Yes, a soul is of infinite value. But what about all of those other souls--the "many" who would never rise again? Were they of less value than the life of the king?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: APL] #168879
10/10/14 05:15 PM
10/10/14 05:15 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
Let's say my son tells me that his life goal was to hurt, injure, and damage himself before ultimtely committing suicide. On top of that, he will make every effort to hurt, injure, damage, and kill as many as he can in the meantime. I certainly would not be agreeable to such a plan.
OH - You mean like Satan?
I had missed that. Glad you pointed it out. While satan and the other angels were created beings, they are counted as God's children, His sons and daughters. God knew that satan would continue to cause untold harm and damage and "many" would become so hardened they would never convert, and even some "innocent" ones would be lost. Yet He did not kill his child, even a creation which He could replace, to prevent future tragedies.

I noticed asygo only repeated himself, without addressing anything. Do you hear him suggesting that he is more "loving" with his children than God is with His children?

Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: kland] #168881
10/10/14 06:42 PM
10/10/14 06:42 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Manasseh repented. Are you saying Green he should have been taken out long before this to save many souls? What are you saying?

Should Cain have been taken out after he killed Able? God did not do that, why?

And chief among the sinners is Satan - why was it necessary to permit the worst sinner to ever live to continue to live? Could it be that force submission just does not work?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: kland] #168882
10/10/14 11:40 PM
10/10/14 11:40 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
In euthanasia ist the motivation love or hate?

Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love? [Re: Rosangela] #168883
10/11/14 12:18 AM
10/11/14 12:18 AM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
In euthanasia ist the motivation love or hate?
Did Saul commit euthanasia? Badly wounded, he fell on his sword to end the suffering.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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