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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16992
02/24/06 12:32 AM
02/24/06 12:32 AM
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OP
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To be honest, Tom, I find Jones tideous to read. I studied J&W's messages quite thoroughly several years ago and eventually came to the conclusion that Steps to Christ summarizes everything they ever wrote about righteousness by faith. There's nothing they said that she didn't say better. I realize she highly recommends them, but fortunately for me she didn't make it required reading.
Referring back to my last post, I am convinced that, at this point in my journey, I do not fall into the category of Laodiceans that Sister White describes in the quote I posted. I do not doubt it for one moment.
Do you believe her description (i.e., not J&W's description) describes your current state and status?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16993
02/24/06 03:51 AM
02/24/06 03:51 AM
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Well, she didn't agree with your judgment. quote:
I understood that both these men were at the General Conference [held in Battle Creek, February 17 - March 6, 1893], that is, S and C. Could they not discern there the revealings of the Spirit of God? Could they not see that God was opening the windows of heaven and pouring out a blessing? Why was this? Testimonies had been given correcting and counseling the church and many had made a practical application of the message to the Laodicean Church, and were confessing their sins and repenting in contrition of soul. They were hearing the voice of Jesus, the heavenly Merchantman, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man
hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me" (Revelation 3:20).
These brethren who claimed to have this wonderful light had the very same work of repentance and confession to do, thus clearing the rubbish from the door of their own hearts, and opening the door of their hearts to welcome the heavenly guest. Had they placed themselves in the channel of light, they would have received the most precious blessings from heaven. They would have seen that the Lord was indeed gracious, manifesting Himself to His people, and that the Sun of Righteousness had risen upon them. This was precious merchandizing actively carried on. The counsel of Christ to the Laodicean Church was being acted upon, and all who were feeling their poverty were buying gold (faith and love), white raiment (the righteousness of Christ), and eye salve (true spiritual discernment).
Why did not these brethren fall into line, and place themselves in the channel of light? They were poverty stricken and knew it not. They were not working in Christ's lines, were not softened and subdued by His Holy Spirit, and were so blinded that they could not see the strong beams of light that were coming from the throne of God upon His people. They heard not the voice of the true Shepherd. They were listening to the voice of a stranger.
When I consider the infirmities of these misled brethren, I feel deep sorrow of heart that they did not plead with God, "Bless me, O God bless, now I see my error. Thou art communicating to Thy people the richest truths ever committed to mortals. These people are not Babylon; for Thou hast given to them righteousness and peace; and Thy joy, that their joy may be full." Oh why did they not open the door of their heart to Jesus? Why not have removed right there all that obstructs the bright beams of the
351
Sun of Righteousness that they might shine to the world? While God's blessing was penetrating everywhere, while His presence was consecrating and sanctifying souls unto Himself, why did they not place their souls in the channel of light? It was because Satan had cast his hellish shadow athwart their pathway to obstruct every ray of light. (MR 1)
She referred to Jones' teaching as "the richest truths ever committed to mortals." She never said this in regards to her own writings, did she? It never ceases to amaze me how people claim to believe in the writings of Ellen White, but ignore her endorsements of others, and contrary to her counsels, throw everyone else away but her. She never said we should only quote her.
I find it odd that you say you have studied J&W's messages thoroughly yet do not know what they taught. For example, anyone who had even the briefest acquaintance with Waggoner would not write something like "justification if Jesus' work in heaven while sanctification is Jesus' work on earth."
quote:
Let us consider our condition before God; let us heed the counsel of the True Witness. Let none of us be filled with prejudice, as were the Jews, that light may not come into our hearts. Let it not be necessary for Christ to say of us as He did of them, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40).
In every meeting since the General Conference, souls have eagerly accepted the precious message of the righteousness of Christ. We thank God that there are souls who realize that they are in need of something which they do not possess--gold of faith and love, white raiment of Christ's righteousness, eyesalve of spiritual discernment. If you possess these precious gifts, the temple of the human soul will not be like a desecrated shrine. Brethren and sisters, I call upon you in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth to work where God works. Now is the day of gracious opportunity and privilege. (FW 84)
I can't understand why you ask if I think EGW's description describes my condition, but not Jones? What's the difference? Why are you distinguishing between the two? Besides, it is not Ellen White nor Jones who is calling us to repent, but the Lord Jesus Christ. It is He who says I am wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked and know it not. I confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is correct, and I humbly ask for the remedies He offers me; white robe, gold tried in the fire, and eye salve. Sounds just wonderful to me! I say, "I confess You are right" and "Thank you for your wonderful gifts. You have just what I need."
You know, the section you quoted from Faith and Works is commenting on the message Jones presented, which I've been asking you to read! She saying the same thing he is! She is reiterating that the Lord Jesus is calling us to repentance.
Note she write, "Let us consider our condition before God; let us heed the counsel of the True Witness." I say Amen! She says, "Let us consider our condition before God; let us heed the counsel of the True Witness." She never excluded herself from Christ's call to repentance. If she didn't, and Jones didn't, why would I?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16994
02/24/06 04:10 AM
02/24/06 04:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
John, you asked what happened to ignorance? I agree with Tom. It is alive and kicking. I also agree with you that everyone is ignorant of something. But I disagree with you that doing unlawful labor during the Sabbath hours is not a sin. It is a sin whether the person knows it or not, whether they are conscious of it or not.
Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
The Sabbath is Sabbath whether a person knows it or not.
But, it is entirely impossible to remember the Sabbath if you do not know about it; and such lack of remembering is not sin.
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16995
02/24/06 04:44 AM
02/24/06 04:44 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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MM, your implication referencing the Sabbath, establishes the problem #2 that I had previously listed:
2) To think or say that there is such a thing as “sin of ignorance”, would mean that it is actually known and to imply that one is wrong for not knowing it.
You speak as one who knows and therefore you find sin, but if you did not know it you could not find it to be sin.
Now here is a matter where blood needs to be applied to the conscience of him that knows and finds fault, so that grace in his heart may cover the ignorance of his brother, and that instead of holding fault, he may be an instrument of the blessing of salvation.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16996
02/25/06 04:05 AM
02/25/06 04:05 AM
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OP
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
The True Witness says of a cold, lifeless, Christless church, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of My mouth" (Revelation 3:15, 16). Mark the following words: "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Here is represented a people who pride themselves in their possession of spiritual knowledge and advantages. But they have not responded to the unmerited blessings that God has bestowed upon them. They have been full of rebellion, ingratitude, and forgetfulness of God; and still He has dealt with them as a loving, forgiving father deals with an ungrateful, wayward son. They have resisted His grace, abused His privileges, slighted His opportunities, and have been satisfied to sink down in contentment, in lamentable ingratitude, hollow formalism, and hypocritical insincerity. With pharisaic pride they have vaunted themselves till it has been said of them, "Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" (verse 17). {FW 83.1}
Has not the Lord Jesus sent message after message of rebuke, of warning, of entreaty, to these self-satisfied ones? Have not His counsels been despised and rejected? Have not His delegated messengers been treated with scorn, and their words been received as idle tales? Christ sees that which man does not see. He sees the sins which, if not repented of, will exhaust the patience of a long-suffering God. Christ cannot take up the names of those who are satisfied in their own self-sufficiency. He cannot importune in behalf of a people who feel no need of His help, who claim to know and possess everything. {FW 83.2}
Tom, if you truly believe this description describes your present experience then, as a brother in Christ, I would like to encourage you to receive of the True Witness those things that alone can heal you. Please stop resisting receiving them. Once you receive them you will enter an experience that will sastisfy your soul like nothng else can.
PS - Given your suspicious nature I feel like I need to reassure you that I am not being sarcastic or obtuse. I am being sincere.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16997
02/25/06 04:15 AM
02/25/06 04:15 AM
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OP
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John, the Devil knows who is keeping the Sabbath and who is breaking it. In the cases of those who are breaking it he claims them as his own. And rightly so, were it not for the blood and righteousness of Jesus. Those born again non-SDA believers who break the Sabbath ignorantly are covered by the blood and righteousness and, as such, they belong to Jesus. The Devil has no right to them.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16998
02/24/06 05:44 PM
02/24/06 05:44 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM. Did you read the sermon I suggested you read? If you did, that should help you to understand better the Laodecean message. If you think you are not included, you are disagreeing with what the servant of the Lord called "the richest truths ever committed to mortals."
She warned and warned and warned against fighting against this message. I don't want to be on the wrong side of these warnings.
I appreciate your counsel to avail myself of the rainment, pure gold, and eyesalve the Lord so generously offers. I intend to do so, and likewise invite you to respond as well. Whosoever will may come!
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16999
02/24/06 09:58 PM
02/24/06 09:58 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
John, the Devil knows who is keeping the Sabbath and who is breaking it. In the cases of those who are breaking it he claims them as his own. And rightly so, were it not for the blood and righteousness of Jesus. Those born again non-SDA believers who break the Sabbath ignorantly are covered by the blood and righteousness and, as such, they belong to Jesus. The Devil has no right to them.
MM, indeed, this confirms my point that: It is a sin to insinuate sins of ignorance.
Just because Christ gave his life a “ransom” does not mean that he agrees with Satan in his judgment. The point is that Christ does not judge as Satan does and neither should Christ’s followers. Christ died so that Satan’s judgment would be overthrown, and not that it should be perpetuated. It was overthrown at the cross.
The matter that is left in the applying of the blood has to do with cleansing the conscience of those who are being saved, to set us free from Satan’s judgment, insinuations, accusations, of which we all have taken part in. It is God’s work to establish his judgment in our hearts so that His grace may reign.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#17000
02/24/06 10:14 PM
02/24/06 10:14 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
John, the Devil knows who is keeping the Sabbath and who is breaking it. In the cases of those who are breaking it he claims them as his own. And rightly so, were it not for the blood and righteousness of Jesus. Those born again non-SDA believers who break the Sabbath ignorantly are covered by the blood and righteousness and, as such, they belong to Jesus. The Devil has no right to them.
It's not a matter of claims and counter-claims but of the choices of the individuals concerned. We "belong" to whoever we choose to serve. It's not a matter of the devil's rights, but of our choice.
The reason the blood of Christ prevents the devil from grabbing those who are born again is because those who are born again are born again. That is, they are converted, and choose to follow the lamb whereever He goes. Whoseover will may come.
Finally, the devil has no right to anybody. He is a thief.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#17001
02/27/06 03:49 PM
02/27/06 03:49 PM
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OP
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Thanx, John. I am resigned that I cannot grasp your point. Sorry.
Tom, please don't take this wrong, but I purchased the sacred gifts of the True Witness several years ago, and continue in them to this day. To doubt is to disbelieve, and to disbelieve is to distrust, and to distrust to crucify Christ afresh - something, by the grace of God, I refuse to do.
Also, the Devil owns us by default. We are his possession until we chose to be born again. We are "carnal, sold under sin." He has control of our will until we surrender it to Jesus. We are natural born slaves of sin, the servants of Satan. Sinning is our legacy, and, unless we are born again, sinning is our destiny. There is no neutral ground, no in between place where we neither serve Satan nor Jesus.
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