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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17040
02/19/06 05:04 AM
02/19/06 05:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
That is, different than saying by faith we are as righteous as Jesus is righteous - both legally and really.
What's the difference?
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17041
02/19/06 11:47 AM
02/19/06 11:47 AM
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Greetings MM,
Think you forgot to put in the element which brings us to trust and obey, that is love. John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Otherwise everything is still done out of legalities.
Your Sister in Christ,
Cheri Fritz
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17042
02/19/06 12:12 PM
02/19/06 12:12 PM
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...Let me restate that a bit,
I think that you forgot to "accentuate" love as our motive. Although you did cover it, but it came much later in your response.
Thank you,
Sr. Cheri Fritz
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17043
02/19/06 03:00 PM
02/19/06 03:00 PM
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For some who question “why” the why immediately in their minds isn’t “why should I obey God”, but “why should I keep the Sabbath” or “why should I avoid unclean meats”, or “why should I not drink coffee”? Rather than asking why obey God, they are questioning is this really what God asks? It only becomes a question of “why obey God” for those of us who believe that those things are indeed what God asks of us.
Another thing to ponder…does obeying first involve a conscious effort to obey as much as it involves a natural tendency to do the thing that amounts to obedience anyway because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Jeff
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17044
02/19/06 05:58 PM
02/19/06 05:58 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, the difference between being legally righteous as opposed to being really righteous is the difference between justification (imputed righteousness) and sanctification (imparted righteousness). quote:
Righteousness within is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within is not hard-hearted and unsympathetic, but day by day he grows into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ until grace is lost in glory. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895. {MYP 35.2}
Cheri, yes, and amen! The love of Jesus is one of the main things that motivates us to obey, and one of the main things that empowers us to obey.
quote:
Oh, let us contemplate the amazing sacrifice that has been made for us! Let us try to appreciate the labor and energy that Heaven is expending to reclaim the lost, and bring them back to the Father's house. Motives stronger, and agencies more powerful, could never be brought into operation; the exceeding rewards for right-doing, the enjoyment of heaven, the society of the angels, the communion and love of God and His Son, the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages--are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer? {SC 21.3}
And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}
Jeff, your point to ponder reminded of the following insight:
quote:
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17045
02/19/06 06:09 PM
02/19/06 06:09 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, the difference between being legally righteous as opposed to being really righteous is the difference between justification (imputed righteousness) and sanctification (imparted righteousness).
So you're saying when a person is justified by faith they are not really righteous?
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17046
02/20/06 03:06 PM
02/20/06 03:06 PM
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SDA
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Both are true simultaneously the moment we are born again, and both are maintained on a moment by moment basis by continually obeying God, by continually abiding in Jesus, by continually refusing to sin, and by continually maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.
Justification is what Jesus accomplishes for us in heaven. It accommodates past sins pardoned and sins of ignorance. Jesus cannot justify or forgive us if we refuse to confess and forsake known sin. One sin cherished completely cancels the privileges of justification.
“No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty.” (1SM 396)
“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)
“Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)
Sanctification is what Jesus accomplishes in and through us on earth. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting and forgiveness (justification accommodates these aspects of salvation). Sanctification is the process of growing intellectually and maturing morally. We are born again fully justified and sanctified. We obtain justification by faith, and we maintain it through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. “Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.” (COL 65)
Although we are justified and sanctified the moment we are born again, the actual process of sanctification continues throughout eternity. While in heaven, we will continue to grow more and more like Christ. This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)
“‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17047
02/20/06 05:03 PM
02/20/06 05:03 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Justification is what Jesus accomplishes for us in heaven.
I'm glad we're having this conversation because it's helping clear up some things. What you call "sanctification" is what I call "justification".
"Justification" is not what Jesus accomplishes for us in heaven. It's the same thing as being born again, or being converted. It's a change of heart and mind, a transformation, a reconciliation.
When I have time, I'll make a careful case for what I have asserted above. Just a couple of quick texts.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God." (Rom. 8:1) This shows justification is not a work done in heaven, but done in the heart and mind of man.
"With the heart man believeth unto rightouesness".(Rom. 10:10) This also shows justification by faith is a work done in the heart of man.
It has to be a work done in the heart and mind of man, because that's where the problem is. There's no problem in heaven, no justification needs to be done there.
Justification is simply "reconciliation", setting things right. Here's a quote from the Spirit of Prophecy:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)
Note we're set right (justified) by the revelation of God. Once again, this is a heart work.
More later.
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17048
02/20/06 10:22 PM
02/20/06 10:22 PM
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Tom, if justification does not make pardon for past sins possible, and if it doesn't make covering sins of ignorance possible - what does?
FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)
FW 103
Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption. The sinner receives the forgiveness of his sins, because these sins are borne by his Substitute and Surety. The Lord speaks to His heavenly Father, saying: "This is My child, I reprieve him from the condemnation of death, giving him My life insurance policy--eternal life--because I have taken his place and have suffered for his sins. He is even My beloved son." Thus man, pardoned, and clothed with the beautiful garments of Christ's righteousness, stands faultless before God. {FW 103.2}
6BC 1071
The grace of Christ is freely to justify the sinner without merit or claim on his part. Justification is a full, complete pardon of sin. The moment a sinner accepts Christ by faith, that moment he is pardoned. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to him, and he is no more to doubt God's forgiving grace. {6BC 1071.8}
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17049
02/20/06 10:47 PM
02/20/06 10:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, if justification does not make pardon for past sins possible, and if it doesn't make covering sins of ignorance possible - what does?
You may have noticed from your quotes, that justification by faith and pardon for sins are one and the same. So it doesn't make any sense to say that justification makes pardon possible, does it? Since that would be saying justification makes justification possible.
That justification and pardon are the same can be seen from the Scriptures. When the publican smote his breast, and wouldn't so much as look to heaven, but cried out, "God, be merciful to me a sinner" he went away justified, according to Jesus. This shows that justification and pardon are the same.
Also in Romans 4 Paul cited David as an example of justification when David said, "Blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven."
Given that justification = forgiveness of sins, what makes you think justification is something which happens in heaven? All of the quotes you have provided show the same thing I stated, which is that justification happens in the human heart and mind.
You also have not commented on the Scriptures and EGW texts which states this very thing. You also have not provided any statement that says justification is something that happens in heaven.
The only possible thing you could mention would be that our names are written in the book of life, but this is simply a recognition of the work which God has done in human hearts and minds. The books in heaven don't lie. They don't call someone righteous who is really unrighteous. The righteousness of Christ is real righteousness, which purifies the soul and transforms the mind. This is justification by faith.
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