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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: kland]
#170309
12/01/14 11:10 PM
12/01/14 11:10 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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APL, you didn't address my point.
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: kland]
#170310
12/01/14 11:10 PM
12/01/14 11:10 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Kland, you missed the point.
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: kland]
#170313
12/01/14 11:29 PM
12/01/14 11:29 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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MM - you missed my point.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: kland]
#170328
12/02/14 01:16 PM
12/02/14 01:16 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I thought you were responding to my point. What is your point? Do you know what my point is?
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: APL]
#170329
12/02/14 01:26 PM
12/02/14 01:26 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: You have already told us why you think Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent evildoers from murdering innocent women and children. You believe it is because He respects their freedom 1) to choose and 2) to do. However, this implies Jesus chooses to violate their freedom to do when He intervenes and prevents it.
A: Jeremiah 9:23-24 Thus said the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, said the LORD." But some say we can't understand! Yes, you say you understand why there are times Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent theft, rape, murder, etc. You call it the Third Category - "there are things that God wants to prevent, but because of freedom, He can't." "God has chosen to limit Himself in order to give us freedom." "We can never look into the eyes of someone who has been raped and tell them that God could have prevented this, but He choose to allowed this to happen for a good reason. The truth is that we have a God that wants to prevent these terrible things, but can not because He has given us freedom." "If we say that child molestation and rape happen because God choose not to intervene for some good reason, this is speaking evil and a lie and is sick and woe to those that say this. You can't say that God allowed these for a good reason. You can say that these happened because of freedom. We choose how to exercise that freedom, and that freedom can be used to hurt each other, and God hates it." You say Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evildoers to cause evil. But what does it imply when Jesus chooses to intervene and prevent evil? Does it mean He violates freewill? Please list examples of Jesus intervening and preventing evil.Is God controlling everything if He has given us freedom? If He has granted freedom, is there not then a chance that His will, will not happen? He can not control everything and preserve freedom. God has chosen to limit Himself in order to give us freedom.
So there are situations #1 where God can prevent something and He does, and #2 there are situations where God can prevent something but chooses not to for a good reason. But there is a third category according to the scriptures #3, there are things that God wants to prevent, but because of freedom, He can't.
We can never look into the eyes of someone who has been raped and tell them that God could have prevented this, but He choose to allowed this to happen for a good reason. The truth is that we have a God that wants to prevent these terrible things, but can not because He has given us freedom.
So, #3: there are many things happening on this planet that God does not want to happen. They do not happen because God has a reason for them, a purpose for them to happen. An enemy has done this!!!
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
If we say that child molestation and rape happen because God choose not to intervene for some good reason, this is speaking evil and a lie and is sick and woe to those that say this. You can't say that God allowed these for a good reason. You can say that these happened because of freedom. We choose how to exercise that freedom, and that freedom can be used to hurt each other, and God hates it.
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: kland]
#170330
12/02/14 01:53 PM
12/02/14 01:53 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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If we say that child molestation and rape happen because God choose not to intervene for some good reason, this is speaking evil and a lie and is sick and woe to those that say this. You can't say that God allowed these for a good reason. You can say that these happened because of freedom. There are times when Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent evil for reasons that make sense to Him - which is good. No, the evil act is not good. You say you understand why Jesus chooses not to intervene and prevent evil. You say it is because He chooses not to violate freewill. Evildoers are free 1) to choose and 2) to do evil. But your understanding of why Jesus chooses to permit evil does not explain why He sometimes chooses to intervene and prevent evil. Your understanding implies Jesus violates freewill every time He chooses to intervene and prevent evil. According to the understanding I have been advocating it is clear Jesus is free to intervene and prevent evil. He can do so without violating freewill.
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: kland]
#170333
12/02/14 02:18 PM
12/02/14 02:18 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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According to the understanding I have been advocating it is clear Jesus is free to intervene and prevent evil. He can do so without violating freewill. Yes, with no Bible or SOP support you hold this view. But your understanding of why Jesus chooses to permit evil does not explain why He sometimes chooses to intervene and prevent evil. Your understanding implies Jesus violates freewill every time He chooses to intervene and prevent evil. What happens when a sinner's cup of iniquity if full? Example, Genesis 6:5 vs Genesis 15:16? What is the unpardonable sin? This condition the sinner no longer has any free will. He is a total slave to sin.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: kland]
#170336
12/02/14 07:18 PM
12/02/14 07:18 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2024
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Posts: 6,431
Midland
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MM, you didn't address my question.
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: kland]
#170348
12/03/14 01:08 PM
12/03/14 01:08 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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MM, you didn't address my question. What question?
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Re: If One kills those who disagree with Him, does that show love?
[Re: APL]
#170349
12/03/14 01:37 PM
12/03/14 01:37 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: According to the understanding I have been advocating it is clear Jesus is free to intervene and prevent evil. He can do so without violating freewill.
A: Yes, with no Bible or SOP support you hold this view. Do you believe Jesus is free to intervene and prevent evildoers from following through with their evil desires to steal, rape, murder, etc? For example: 1) Do you think Jesus is free to impress someone to show up at just the right time to prevent an evildoer from hurting an innocent woman or child? 2) Do you think Jesus is free to cause a gun to misfire when an evildoers pulls the trigger intending to murder an innocent woman or child? 3) Do you think Jesus is free to allow an evildoer to have a heart attack while attempting to hurt an innocent women or child in order to prevent it? 4) Do you think Jesus is free to work to prevent evildoers from exceeding the limits of evil He is willing to permit? I highly doubt you will honor me by answering my questions. But I would love it if you would surprise me and answer them.M: But your understanding of why Jesus chooses to permit evil does not explain why He sometimes chooses to intervene and prevent evil. Your understanding implies Jesus violates freewill every time He chooses to intervene and prevent evil.
A: What happens when a sinner's cup of iniquity if full? Example, Genesis 6:5 vs Genesis 15:16? What is the unpardonable sin? This condition the sinner no longer has any free will. He is a total slave to sin. 1) If they no longer possess the ability or freedom to choose are they culpable? 2) Can God hold them accountable for their evil deeds during the final judgment? 3) Do such people exist today? Do they harm innocent woman and children? If so, to what purpose does Jesus continue to give them breath and life? 4) Is Jesus free to intervene and prevent them from hurting innocent woman and children?
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