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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#172727
04/03/15 03:49 PM
04/03/15 03:49 PM
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The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. LDE 241.
K: MM, APL is making the claim that there is no difference between killing and murder. Do you think he did a good job or a poor job in defending it? Because your quote does not to appear address any differences. The quote says God "can do infinite justice that man has no right to do". It would have been wrong for Noah to drown even one sinner. But God drowned millions of sinners with impunity. It is not a sin when God kills sinners. Nor is it a sin when God commands holy men and holy angels to kill sinners. The difference between God killing (or commanding killing) and sinners murdering is like night and day, like black and white. While that may or may not be true as you intend, the question is: What does that have to do with making a distinction between Killing and Murder?
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: APL]
#172733
04/03/15 05:52 PM
04/03/15 05:52 PM
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Killing is not murder when God does it or commands it done. Murder is killing not done by God or commanded by God. God "can do infinite justice that man has no right to do".
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#172739
04/03/15 11:33 PM
04/03/15 11:33 PM
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OP
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Killing is not murder when God does it or commands it done. Murder is killing not done by God or commanded by God. God "can do infinite justice that man has no right to do". What Pharaoh has done, will be done again and again by men until the close of probation. God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief, and will reap as he has sown. As it was with Pharaoh, so it will be with him; when clearer light shines upon the truth, he will meet it with increased resistance, and the work of hardening the heart will go on with each rejection of the increasing light of heaven. In simplicity and truth we would speak to the impenitent in regard to the way in which men destroy their own souls. You are not to say that God is to blame, that he has made a decree against you. No, he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth, and to the haven of eternal bliss. No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation. God follows men with appeals and warnings and assurances of compassion, until further opportunities and privileges would be wholly in vain. The responsibility rests upon the sinner. By resisting the Spirit of God today, he prepares the way for a second resistance of light when it comes with mightier power; and thus he will pass from one stage of indifference to another, until, at last, the light will fail to impress him, and he will cease to respond in any measure to the Spirit of God. {RH, February 17, 1891 par. 2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#172771
04/06/15 07:54 PM
04/06/15 07:54 PM
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Killing is not murder when God does it or commands it done. Murder is killing not done by God or commanded by God. God "can do infinite justice that man has no right to do". So would you be saying the distinction between murder and killing is distinguished by who's doing it? That is, the definition is defined by regarding who does it.
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: APL]
#172784
04/08/15 05:09 PM
04/08/15 05:09 PM
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The Bible makes a distinction between murder and killing. The laws of the land also make a distinction. It has to do with who does the killing and why they did it as to whether or not it is murder. If God does the killing it is not murder. If God commands someone else to kill it is not murder. If someone takes it upon themselves to kill another human being it is murder. If a soldier kills someone during the heat of battle it is not murder.
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: APL]
#172790
04/08/15 06:06 PM
04/08/15 06:06 PM
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OP
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mm:The Bible makes a distinction between murder and killing.
So you have no argument against the OP. Just a statement of your belief...
mm:The laws of the land also make a distinction.
You mean the laws of the world trump the Law of God? I don't think so!
mm: It has to do with who does the killing and why they did it as to whether or not it is murder. If God does the killing it is not murder.
EGW: God destroys no man. Why do you continue to contradict what she states so clearly?
mm: If God commands someone else to kill it is not murder.
You continue to ignore the truth. You do not understand the Old Covenant. You ignore God's leading. Did Israel of old fight? YES. Was it ever God's plan that they fight? DO. There was no need, if they trusted God. The exit from Egypt proved this. But they did fight. Did they ever fully possess the land with all their fightight? NOPE.
mm: If someone takes it upon themselves to kill another human being it is murder.
Oh - so if the law of the land commands a person to be killed, then it is murder by this definition.
mm: If a soldier kills someone during the heat of battle it is not murder.
The fact is no man in his senses is ever free from personal accountability for his acts. He cannot shift the responsibility of his acts upon some other person, or upon an impersonal "Government." That which would be murder in one case, cannot be made lawful by being dignified with the title "war."
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: APL]
#172795
04/09/15 02:37 AM
04/09/15 02:37 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. LDE 241.
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#172798
04/09/15 03:39 PM
04/09/15 03:39 PM
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Thank you for answering the question if there is a distinction between God and man. However, that was not asked. It has to do with who does the killing and why they did it as to whether or not it is murder. If God does the killing it is not murder. If God commands someone else to kill it is not murder. If someone takes it upon themselves to kill another human being it is murder. If a soldier kills someone during the heat of battle it is not murder. You do understand that all you have done is give MM's opinion/distinction between Killing and Murder. It seems to me you are substituting words. For example, you could just as well say that when Joe spreads butter on bread, it is called "buttering his bread", but when Bob spreads butter on bread, it is called "planting his garden". An opinion of words, but not necessarily a distinction. The Bible makes a distinction between murder and killing.
Yes, that's what's being asked here. Where? In APL's first post, it demonstrates there is no difference in the words used. Do you know of somewhere in the Bible where it does make the distinction? If so, could you show us? Because so far, you have showed no distinction other than distinguishing who's doing the same thing. "It would have been wrong for Noah to drown even one sinner. But God drowned millions of sinners with impunity." It distinguishes who's doing it, and if it is right or wrong, but makes no distinction between murder and killing. It doesn't even talk about it.
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: APL]
#172804
04/09/15 05:18 PM
04/09/15 05:18 PM
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OP
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How did God drown the antediluvian world? How did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Was it execution? Nope. From Ellen White we know, but MM wants to remain blind to the truth. Why? Is it because you want to justify the military, which is an organized, state approved murdering machine? ISIS makes laws of the land and everyone is upset with them. But by MM's definition, what ISIS is doing is not murder. Is the U.S. any more moral than ISIS when it's military commits murder?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Biblical Distinction Between Killing and Murder - Take 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#172806
04/09/15 05:45 PM
04/09/15 05:45 PM
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If a soldier kills someone during the heat of battle it is not murder. I just noticed, he made the qualification, "during the heat of battle". Hmmmm.... If a soldier kills someone when there is not a "battle" going on, what is it? If a soldier kills someone when it is not during the "heat", but maybe during a quieter time of battle, what is it? If a soldier kills someone after the enemy has been captured and they are ordered to be executed, what is it? Hmmm, indeed. I think this is a case of MM making opinions on the fly.
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