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Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #174326
06/17/15 01:37 PM
06/17/15 01:37 PM
His child  Offline
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It must be understood that Daniel 11 begins with the three kings who issued decrees to restore Jerusalem - Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes. From there the 2300-years count down to 1844 when Michael stood for His people in the IJ Daniel 12:1.

Then Daniel 11 repeats at verse 6 through Michael standing for His people at Christ's Advent.

It is so simple that a child can understand it but so complex that the wise folks will stumble over it.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #174333
06/17/15 04:15 PM
06/17/15 04:15 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Brother, good suggestion to summarize what I wrote above in a nutshell:
  1. Babylon symbolizes . . . the whore, the impure church, the man of sin, the coalition of the dragon, beast and false prophet, and the image beast empowered by the lamb-like beast.
  2. The kings of the east symbolize . . . a coalition of certain Asiatic nations yet unknown.
  3. The king of the north symbolizes . . . the political manifestation of Babylon (which is a combination of church and state.)
  4. The king of the south symbolizes . . . radical Islam.
  5. The battle of Armageddon symbolizes . . . a)the literal battle between the militaries of Babylon and the ten Asiatic powers and b) the spiritual battle between Babylon and the pure woman, the remnant church.
  6. The Euphrates drying up symbolizes . . . the over-running of radical Islam by the King of the North, especially in the Euphrates valley.

The time of the end (Dan. 11:40) was not fulfilled in the 18th, but in the first century CE: the time of the end of the dispensation of the Jews.

///

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: His child] #174336
06/18/15 03:47 AM
06/18/15 03:47 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: His child
It must be understood that Daniel 11 begins with the three kings who issued decrees to restore Jerusalem - Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes. From there the 2300-years count down to 1844 when Michael stood for His people in the IJ Daniel 12:1.

Then Daniel 11 repeats at verse 6 through Michael standing for His people at Christ's Advent.

It is so simple that a child can understand it but so complex that the wise folks will stumble over it.


Blessings His child,

There was also a fourth from Persia who was the richest. But, the point of this thread is "Identifying the Kings of the North and South". How would you identify these two kings and who do you believe they are?

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: James Peterson] #174337
06/18/15 03:49 AM
06/18/15 03:49 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Blessings James Peterson,

Well, the first century started the "last days". But how does this help in Identifying the kings of the north and south?

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Alchemy] #174339
06/18/15 05:09 AM
06/18/15 05:09 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy


So, let me ask you this; When do you look at this map of Europe? Why do you choose that particular time in history? How does that fit with the Biblical narrative? How does your idea work in Relation to God's people?


It is simple -- just follow the narrative of the prophecy itself.
What happened from verses 24 onward all has to do with Christianity, which spread into Europe and Asia Minor, northern Africa including Egypt and westward. During the 1260 years the true Christians were caught in the middle of Roman Christianity and Muslims.

Rome was the "new Babylon".

Originally Posted By: dedication


So let's make an historical time line of the
"Kings" in Daniel 11.
It does not begin Babylon.


verses 1-2 Mentions the last kings of Persia before they are conquered by the Greeks.

verse 3 The rise of Alexander who conquers vast territories for his Greek empire. 336–323 Before Christ.

verse 4 Alexander's empire is then divided into four parts (two fighting over Palestine)

verses 5-13 Seleucids (king of north) Ptolemies in Egypt (king of South)
Fighting against each other, with Israel in the middle.

verses 14-18 Rise of Romans who eventually subdue both kings, and rule entire area of both kings.
vs 16 Roman consel Pompey conquers Jerusalem in 63 B.C., vs 18-19 deals with Julius Caesar

verse 20 NOW REACHING THE TIME OF CHRIST
The powerful emperor Caesar Augustus rules with absolute power. Orders taxes at the time of Jesus Birth.

22 Deals with the Romans destructing Jerusalem as well as crucifying the Prince of the Covenant - Jesus.

WE NOW ARE IN THE CHRISTIAN ERA (AFTER CHRIST'S RETURN TO HEAVEN -- JERUSALEM IS DESTROYED

verse 23 Rome makes a league with Christians in 312 AD and the papacy begins to be groomed for power

IN CEASAR AUGUSTUS DAY THERE WAS NOT KING OF THE SOUTH.
ROME CONTROLLED THE WHOLE AREA,
BUT....

verse 25 There is a king of the South once again -- marking a great loss to Roman power over all the territory. And what territory did the Roman empire loose?

They did NOT loose the "new Babylon" which is Rome. Roman Christianity remains the king of the NORTH.
But Roman Empire lost Egypt -- they lost all their territories in Africa (south of the Mediterranean) and most of Spain. Islam conquered lands from India, the Middle east, across Africa and up into Spain. All in a matter of about 60 years from 637 - 711. They were stopped by Charles Martel when tried to advance into France.

The whole 1250 years were filled with battles between the

Roman Christians Muslims
And indeed God's true believers were caught in the middle.

Verse 28 Roman Christian world alternates between fighting the Muslims and fighting against God's covenant keeping people.
(By the way, Muslims sometimes helped Christians persecuted by the Roman church, and sometimes also killed them.)

CRUSADES

29-30 Roman Christian crusades continue to fight the king of the south but they are losing strength in these battles.

TRUE CHRISTIANS PERSECUTED

31-35 These verses deal mainly with Roman Christian assault on God's covenant and His true followers.

36-39 The "time of the end" this is not the end but a period of time from 1798 onward to the end.

There is no mention of a king of the north or south in these verses -- they both suffer a blow to their power.

Another power arises, the beast from the bottomless pit, described in Revelation 11:7,
The beast first reared it’s head in France. Thomas Paine and others wrote extensively about this movement.
The Masonic order is dedicated to it. The United States is built on it’s principles.
After terrible scenes of it's ugliness in the French Revolution, for a time this beast from the bottomless pit, seems hidden
as Napoleon restored authoritative control back on France, and the United States, to a large extent,
embraced the principles of Protestantism. Yet masonic and humanistic principles are at work; the principles of evolution,
agnosticism, higher criticism of the Bible, and general humanistic concepts.
This power will become the most powerful military might in the world, and it will give it's power to the papacy.

In the last days the king of the north and south once again emerge.

Code:
vs 40 - 45   The king of the north and the king of the south regain their strength, 
and true Christians will be caught in the middle of the battle.
             King of the North                      King of South
             Roman Christianity                         Muslims

                                               Pushing, attacking, agitating 
                                               This will get worse, worse
             Papacy calls for Christians
            to unite to stop this aggression.
            With great military might they
            attack the king of the south:
             and win.  

The battle goes beyond just a huge clash between Christians and Muslims -- 
Prophetic significance will be put upon it -- "defeating the antichrist" receiving God's blessings by keeping Sunday. 
Everyone not uniting with the united ecumenical unity will be suspected of aiding the "king of the south".

But the temporal win of the king of the North will not last long.
 

                   


Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: dedication] #174340
06/18/15 09:49 AM
06/18/15 09:49 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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dedication wrote;

"It is simple -- just follow the narrative of the prophecy itself.
What happened from verses 24 onward all has to do with Christianity, which spread into Europe and Asia Minor, northern Africa including Egypt and westward. During the 1260 years the true Christians were caught in the middle of Roman Christianity and Muslims.

Rome was the "new Babylon"."

But, the kings of the north and south had long been identified by verse 24...correct?

You seem to avoid verses 3-6 and how those kings were identified back at that time.

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #174349
06/18/15 01:43 PM
06/18/15 01:43 PM
Johann  Offline
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Posts: 3,014
Iceland
How were those kings identified?

Personally I feel safest in following the example of Ellen White in this matter.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Alchemy] #174352
06/18/15 02:42 PM
06/18/15 02:42 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
The time of the end (Dan. 11:40) was not fulfilled in the 18th, but in the first century CE: the time of the end of the dispensation of the Jews.

Blessings James Peterson, Well, the first century started the "last days". But how does this help in Identifying the kings of the north and south?

  • Dan. 11:2. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
    3. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
    5. And the king of the south ... 6. ... for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement ...

In verse 8, it identifies the KINGDOM OF THE SOUTH as Egypt of the Ptolemies. It is obvious then that the KINGDOM OF THE NORTH was SYRIA of the Seleucids. And the land between was the "KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" of the Jews. The LAST DAYS (as you call it) or the "time of the end" (Dan. 11:40) was the complete and utter desolation of house of the Jews: their land and all its inhabitants. (Mat. 23:37-39, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, UNTIL ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.")

Jesus Christ interpreted the prophecy for you. Why then do you run around frantically reading things that do not profit?

///

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: James Peterson] #174355
06/18/15 03:11 PM
06/18/15 03:11 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Blessings James Peterson,

Daniel 11:2 starts talking about Medo-Persia, then Greece and then to Rome. A lot of years have passed between 11:2 and 11:40. Can you explain how you arrived at Syria as the king of the north?

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Alchemy] #174363
06/18/15 04:21 PM
06/18/15 04:21 PM
His child  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: His child
It must be understood that Daniel 11 begins with the three kings who issued decrees to restore Jerusalem - Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes. From there the 2300-years count down to 1844 when Michael stood for His people in the IJ Daniel 12:1.

Then Daniel 11 repeats at verse 6 through Michael standing for His people at Christ's Advent.

It is so simple that a child can understand it but so complex that the wise folks will stumble over it.


Blessings His child,

There was also a fourth from Persia who was the richest. But, the point of this thread is "Identifying the Kings of the North and South". How would you identify these two kings and who do you believe they are?


Alchemy,

Once it is understood that Daniel 11:2-12:1 has been fulfilled as the 2300-years from (the 3 kings climaxing in 457 BC through 1844 AD, it is very easy to identify the kings of the north and south. Knowing that Daniel 12:1 ended in 1844 the first time when Michael stood to begin the IJ thus that moment in history aligns 12:1 with Revelation 10:11 (Thou must prophesy again).

Originally Posted By: EG White
"The prophecies of the eleventh of Daniel have almost reached their final fulfilment." {RH, November 24, 1904 par. 8}


Originally Posted By: EG White
"The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that "shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant." [Verses 31-36, quoted.]" {13MR 394.1}


Originally Posted By: EG White
"The light that Daniel received direct from God was given especially for these last days. The visions he saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment, and all the events foretold will soon come to pass." {16MR 334.2}


After 1844 Daniel 11 prophesies again beginning at verse 6.

Originally Posted By: Daniel 11:6 supplemented
"And in the end of years [after 1844] they shall join themselves together [king of the North England & king of the South France - joined together in the Crimean war]; for the king's daughter [papacy daughter of France. Napoleon invaded Egypt to become the King of the South and his general took Rome to subjugate the pope making the papacy France's daughter - the daughter of the King of the South] of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement [Italy was being united. Pope approached France and England to secure its hold on papal states]: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times [France traded Italian land for secure borders along the Alps between France and Italy. England kept war ships off Italy's coast to observe the unification process, but did not help the pope keep his territory.]


Originally Posted By: Daniel 11:7 supplemented
"But out of a branch of her roots [King of the South's daughter was the papacy and the papal branches are church and state] shall one stand up in his estate [the king of the South became Mussolini], which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north [England's fortress that Mussolini entered was Kenya], and shall deal against them, and shall prevail [Mussolini invaded Kenya and England gave the territory to Italy and redrew the borders giving the seized territory to Mussolini]:


And if you study the chapter prayerfully you will find that the king of the North moves to the USA (now it's Obama) and the king of the south goes back to its own land (Mussolini to Italy) and then it moves to Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran.

To keep it simple read the book America, The Obama Nation. Get the e-book ($10) or the book ($15). Then you will know more than you want to know.

This is how I read it now: the Supreme Court will declare independence from God this month. God will remove His protection from our godless America. Iran will attack the US fleet in the Gulf. And Obama (the power that is to return to pluck up the third horn from the former Eastern Roman Empire- Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran) will do exploits against the Covenant (Constitution) and Sunday Laws will be close behind.

Originally Posted By: EG White
"And when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon's voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized...the United States Government..." {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}


Last edited by His child; 06/18/15 04:29 PM.

"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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