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Re: Lesson Study #1 - The Personality & Divinity of the HOLY SPIRIT
#17482
03/27/06 02:34 PM
03/27/06 02:34 PM
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quote:
It [the Bible] does not say that a unity of three co-eternal persons only hath immortality
The Bible says that Christ and the Spirit are also eternal, so we have three co-eternal persons:
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us” (1 John 1:1,2).
“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God” (Heb. 9:14).
Ellen White also says:
“The eternal Godhead--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent, . . . confederating the heavenly powers with the human that man may become, through heavenly efficiency, partakers of the divine nature and workers together with Christ.” {UL 148.4}
“The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.”--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}
As to John 5:26, it DOES NOT say that God gave Him the life that is in Him, but that God gave Him to have life in Himself. The clear meaning is that God allowed Him to have life in Himself. But who said this refers to Christ in His pre-incarnate state?
The context makes clear that Christ was speaking of His mission as Messiah _ He explicitly uses the words SON OF MAN:
"For, as the Father hath life in himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in himself, and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man" (John 5:25, 26, Young's Literal Translation).
Therefore God granted, or allowed, the man Christ Jesus to have in Himself, as a human being, the eternal life He had possessed in heaven before becoming a man, and to manifest it to the world.
Christ's subordinative passages in the Bible refer to Christ’s role in the plan of salvation in its several phases. When He was on earth He said the Father was greater than Him. In fact, on becoming a man He was made even lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9). If you interpret these passages as not referring to Christ's role in the plan of salvation, you end up by worshiping a lesser God and a higher God, which is simply BITHEISM.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson Study #1 - The Personality & Divinity of the HOLY SPIRIT
#17484
03/27/06 05:57 PM
03/27/06 05:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr.Glenn:
Dear Colin:
The author of today's sabbath school lesson is trying to infuse in the minds of the readers that the Holy Spirit of God is himself God separate and distinct from the only true God who is the Father and (as I interpret the last paragraph) the author is implying that if a person does not accept the doctrine that the Holy Spirit of God is himself God separate and distinct from the only true God who is the Father then that person is guilty of blasphemy.
Yes, well spotted, and we agree do we not that he's wrong on both counts: The Spirit of God is divine but not "God himself", since, as the lesson itself states, "God is who the Father is," and blasphemy against the Spirit is identifying his work in us with the Devil, not refusing to accept that the Spirit is "God himself". Can't make the Son and Spirit 'God' in an absolute sense since only God the Father is that; poor choice of words - "God himself" rather than just divine (can't be "less divine"!) - gives totally the wrong meaning to the Son & Spirit's divinity.
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Re: Lesson Study #1 - The Personality & Divinity of the HOLY SPIRIT
#17485
03/27/06 06:08 PM
03/27/06 06:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Glenn
It [the Bible] does not say that a unity of three co-eternal persons only hath immortality
The Bible says that Christ and the Spirit are also eternal, so we have three co-eternal persons:
Rosangela, Dr. Glenn is showing the lesson's error first in "a unity" of divine nature composed of three divine persons - i.e. divine nature is three persons, which is dead wrong.Rather, three persons possess divine nature. Furthermore, the Father "only hath immortality" means that Jn 5:26 is equally before the incarnation as anything by faith thereafter, so the Son of God and the Spirit of God cannot "only have immortality" despite the lesson saying that all three do.
The eternal divinity of Christ isn't in dispute, nor the divine personality of the Spirit, but rather making the Spirit and the Son exactly like the Father as "God himself" when they most definitely are not while both being divine: that is what is objected to.
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Re: Lesson Study #1 - The Personality & Divinity of the HOLY SPIRIT
#17486
03/27/06 06:46 PM
03/27/06 06:46 PM
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What does being God mean? What does being divine mean?
Jesus is said to be Jehovah, the self-existent One. Yet God alone has immortality. So how is Jesus self-existent without having immortality in Himself?
Given that Christ created all things, He created space and time. Given that Christ created time, how could He not have immortality within Himself? When would He have received it?
Did the Holy Spirit always exist? He must have always existed, as the Spirit of God, since God has always existed. So the Holy Spirit has existed longer than Christ? God the Father and the Holy Spirit have always existed, but Christ did not? How did the Holy Spirit go from being the Spirit of God to being the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ too?
If God the Father existed before Christ did, then there was a time when only God existed, right? As such, is it God's nature to love Himself? If God is love, and all that existed was God, wouldn't that mean that God must have loved Himself, since there was noone else to love?
Sorry to run amuck with questions. I just ate, which I guess pushed me into question asking mode.
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Re: Lesson Study #1 - The Personality & Divinity of the HOLY SPIRIT
#17487
03/27/06 08:26 PM
03/27/06 08:26 PM
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quote:
Rosangela, Dr. Glenn is showing the lesson's error first in "a unity" of divine nature composed of three divine persons - i.e. divine nature is three persons, which is dead wrong. Rather, three persons possess divine nature.
The lesson doesn’t say “a unity of divine nature” – these are your words, and I agree that they do not make much sense. The lesson says “a unity of three co-eternal persons”. The concept of “unity” is taken from Jesus’ own words in John 10:30 and 17:21.
quote:
Furthermore, the Father "only hath immortality"
He who is said to only have immortality is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, a title which is applied to the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev. 17:14; 19:16). Besides, Ellen White says that “Christ only has immortality” (RH, July 10, 1900).
quote:
making the Spirit and the Son exactly like the Father as "God himself" when they most definitely are not while both being divine: that is what is objected to.
Jesus is never called “divine” in the Bible, but He most definitely is called God.
Furthernore, Ellen White says that He is “God essentially, and in the highest sense” (RH, April 5, 1906).
Therefore, I don’t understand your objection to His being referred to as “God himself”.
As to the Holy Spirit being God, this is implied in Matthew 12:31, 32, which is the argument of the lesson. How is it that a sin against God can be forgiven but a sin against the Holy Spirit can’t? Would it make any sense to say that a sin against God can be forgiven but a sin against the angels can’t? No. Why? Because the angels are inferior to God. Christ’s argument only makes sense if the Holy Spirit is equal to God.
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Re: Lesson Study #1 - The Personality & Divinity of the HOLY SPIRIT
#17488
03/28/06 02:06 AM
03/28/06 02:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
What does being God mean? What does being divine mean?
Jesus is said to be Jehovah, the self-existent One. Yet God alone has immortality. So how is Jesus self-existent without having immortality in Himself?
Being "God" is what the Father does: Monday's section of the lesson has "God is who the Father is". "God" in Scripture is both a personal reference to God the Father (like shorthand) and its primary meaning. Being divine is generic for the three persons of the Godhead.
As for Jesus being the I AM but God alone having immortality, Jn 5:26 explains the link: Jesus is God's only begotten Son. How, when and where is not revealed but between their persons is one divine nature, and the Spirit of God is the Spirit in all the fulness of the Godhead - or divine nature.
The Word of God is the Wisdom of God and has many other characteristic titles... ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif) There is no beginning to the Word's existence, since the Father's expression is his Word; yet, the Son of God is begotten of the Father. The 'unique' sonship argument is flawed in that the Greek allows begotten for humans and unique for both them and inanimate objects.
The Godhead is primarily holiness, agape, mercy, justice and goodness, before listing the fruits of the Spirit ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif) . The intellectual descriptions of eternal self-existence, all-knowing, all powerful, and present everywhere must not have the priority of definition, nor do they primarily designate what make Father, Son and Holy Spirit divine. When there is imbalance here, understanding is potentially distorted.
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Re: Lesson Study #1 - The Personality & Divinity of the HOLY SPIRIT
#17489
03/28/06 03:13 AM
03/28/06 03:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
quote:
Rosangela, Dr. Glenn is showing the lesson's error first in "a unity" of divine nature composed of three divine persons - i.e. divine nature is three persons, which is dead wrong. Rather, three persons possess divine nature.
The lesson doesn’t say “a unity of divine nature” – these are your words, and I agree that they do not make much sense. The lesson says “a unity of three co-eternal persons”. The concept of “unity” is taken from Jesus’ own words in John 10:30 and 17:21.
Yes, unity of purpose is vital, but the teachers notes state "God's triune Being reveals his inherently sociable, communicative and interactive nature". The lesson text and teachers comments combine to portray a triune divine nature or being of three co-eternal persons, united in purpose while sharing an equal nature: that's indistinguishable from a unity of divine nature composed absolutely of three persons. They said enough to leave that understanding....Our doctrinal books explain the divine trio as merely united in purpose and with little more than common, eternal, self-existence they're divine - with no natural links like begotten or proceeding between them.
That's questionable.
quote:
quote:
Furthermore, the Father "only hath immortality"
He who is said to only have immortality is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, a title which is applied to the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev. 17:14; 19:16). Besides, Ellen White says that “Christ only has immortality” (RH, July 10, 1900).
Isn't Ellen White's point a contrast between Christ's divinity and our mortal humanity, in relation to receiving immortality at his Return? As for my point, I insist, for 1 Tim 6:14-16 quote:
14that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15which He in His times shall show -- He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen nor can see, to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.
clearly distinguishes between our Lord Jesus Christ and the Father and only Potentate: Who dwells in light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen nor can see??....Whose times shall show the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ????...
Obviously Jesus is divine and has immortality, but Scripture is simply clear that he has that from his Father. Jn 5:26 for starters; Heb 1:1-5 is commented on in 8T 268 by stating the Jesus is his Father's Son, to whom all the cousels of his Father are opened; coupled with P&P chapter 1, these EGW comments predate Lucifer's fall and creation - for Prov 8:22-30 is cited. Really I'm just clarifying the relationship between Father, Son and their Spirit as understood by our church till after Sister White's death, against unhelpful if not inaccurate SS lesson content.
quote:
quote:
making the Spirit and the Son exactly like the Father as "God himself" when they most definitely are not while both being divine: that is what is objected to.
Jesus is never called “divine” in the Bible, but He most definitely is called God.
Furthernore, Ellen White says that He is “God essentially, and in the highest sense” (RH, April 5, 1906).
Therefore, I don’t understand your objection to His being referred to as “God himself”.
As to the Holy Spirit being God, this is implied in Matthew 12:31, 32, which is the argument of the lesson. How is it that a sin against God can be forgiven but a sin against the Holy Spirit can’t? Would it make any sense to say that a sin against God can be forgiven but a sin against the angels can’t? No. Why? Because the angels are inferior to God. Christ’s argument only makes sense if the Holy Spirit is equal to God.
Have a look at my most recent post to Tom about being divine and being God. John 1:1 has Jesus, the Word, described as divine, not called divine, and not called God, which the Father is called in that verse. It is correct to state Jesus is God, as the Father's Son, but calling him God is in the context that he has a divine Father; of his divinity there never was any question here or in our church's formal teaching. Three divine persons wouldn't have one that is less than divine or less equal: no-one here thinks that, to my knowledge. Separating the Son of God and the Spirit of God from "God himself" is matter of a personal reference: "God himself" is solely a reference to the Father, in ordinary Biblical language, not a term for divine nature.
As a church we formally blur the difference between the Godhead of three divine persons and a divine nature consisting minimally of three persons. Emphasising a triune nature or being of God lands one with the latter, wrong option above: it's at best a poor choice of words - substituting "God himself" for "divine nature" for each person of the Godhead, or at worst it's intentionally teaching a mistaken view of the nature of God which is now both popular and compulsory under our formal trinitarian profession.
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Re: Lesson Study #1 - The Personality & Divinity of the HOLY SPIRIT
#17490
03/28/06 04:24 AM
03/28/06 04:24 AM
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quote:
There is no beginning to the Word's existence, since the Father's expression is his Word; yet, the Son of God is begotten of the Father.
I agree with this.
quote:
The 'unique' sonship argument is flawed in that the Greek allows begotten for humans and unique for both them and inanimate objects.
This is not sound logic. Let's say "Monogenes" may be translated "unique" or "begotten." "Unique" may apply to either animals or or humans, whereas "begotten" can be applied to only humans. This is no way argues that the word should be translated "begotten." You see that, don't you? I can elaborate if necessary.
By the way, I don't have a problem with the word "begotten." I'm just pointing out the faulty logic.
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