That is a different reality. Let's take it one point at a time. Jesus (God) causes, commands, and permits death, disease, and destruction. Which is it? It depends on the circumstances. Sometimes Jesus causes it Himself, sometimes He commands holy angels to do it, and other times He permits evil angels to do it. It is not a question of - Which is it? Or, which way is right? The truth is - all three are right. None of them are wrong. Jesus decides which way is best under the circumstances. He always knows best. He never gets it wrong.

My point is simple, which is - You believe Jesus (God) withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction. You believe evil men and evil angels are not free to do as they please. They must receive permission from Jesus to wreak havoc. You also believe Jesus works to ensure they do not exceed the limits He sets. They are only allowed to do what Jesus is willing to permit, what circumstances force Him to allow. No more, no less.

I totally agree with you. Yes, we disagree on other aspects of the issue. But on this point we agree. Now, the why of it neither one of us can say. That is, why Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to harm innocent women and children we cannot say with absolute certainty. Yes, He respects freewill. However, that doesn't explain everything. The only thing we can say with certainty is that in Heaven Jesus will explain to us why He was forced to do this and that. His explanation will make perfect sense. It will not lessen the pain and sadness. Today we can take comfort, find solace in the fact Jesus will one day explain it to us. By faith I believe.

I'm not sure we agree an anything. I don't think you do understand what I believe, and that's fine. What I believe is immaterial to your salvation.

The wages of sin is death, not execution, death. The inevitable results of sin is death, the natural consequences of sin is death. Why was sin permitted? Because the universe did not understand this, that the natural consequences of sin is death, not execution by God. Sickness, disease and death are caused by sin, not by God.

APL, I am very sure we agree on the following:

I'm sure we do not agree MM. God gives NO permission for anyone to violate His law.

The following was posted online recently by Kevin Straub, compiler of the book, As He Is, www.teachservices.com, an SDA book publishing and distributing company. The quote speaks for itself.

I AM OF THE CONVICTION THAT EVERY instance of entropy, calamity, destruction, and death is entirely due to the results of sin (defined as a disconnect with God and righteousness) and not to that of the active employment of God's power to negative ends. I believe that God's power and presence is consistently exercised by the Divine for purposes of creativity, sustenance, and restoration. When any kind of evil or degradation occurs, it is due to the principle which I have come to describe by the term "Divine Recession," or the withdrawal of God. The level of entropy or destruction which occurs is in proportion to the degree of recession. The Bible terminology for DR is "the hiding of His face" which is the description and definition of God's anger, or wrath. We find first mention of this in Scripture, in Deuteronomy 31:16-18, where the results of rejecting God are depicted in certain terms as "evil and troubles" which shall befall the people who choose other gods and the reason is emphatically provided, couched between two uses of the phrase, "hide my face" as because "our God is not among us."

Other Biblical phrases used to depict the same mechanism of wrath are "giving over," (e.g., Psalms 78:50) "giving up," (e.g., 2 Chronicles 30:7) "delivering up" and "sparing not." (e.g., Romans 8:32).

The "consistent view" of God's character, which I hold firmly, pertaining to His relation to the use of violence in the conduct of His own defense in the great controversy teaches that God never does as man, in that He will break the law in order to uphold the law. In the case of this discussion, we specifically focus upon God’s own relation to the commandment "thou shalt not kill," in His willingness to use threats of damaging or lethal force and His actual use of damaging or lethal force. Man takes special license to legitimize the threat or use of damaging or lethal force to uphold the law, which ordinarily prohibits the same. God's ways are infinitely higher than man's and everything He does is in righteousness. This is all to say, God never takes license to employ unrighteousness to achieve righteous ends, as man does. This is pragmatism.

Further, it moves the contest, at least in specific times and places, to an arena that has nothing to do with the contest over principle, ideology and truth: that of raw power alone. Viz., in seeing God as willing to step outside of His “normal” character, which is a transcript of the law, and do something highly irregular, or “strange” in that He would actually turn the use of His power to fearful, destructive and coercive ends. (Note the intentional use of the word “strange,” which is often claimed that such an act of God is violence in a proactive modality, when it is rather proven that His strange act is none other than our “Divine Recession,” or hiding of face; but this is another study.) This type of behaviour from One Who has all power, as Creator of all the powers, reduces the theme of the great controversy to nonsensical gibberish. For, as it is said, “love wins” yet if the All-Powerful can at times override the preferred theme of demonstration of love, rolling up His sleeves and getting busy in active force and destruction and killing of His enemies just to make sure that all things move in the direction of a favorable outcome for “love,” we have nothing but sheer hypocrisy. The case of the flood is a primary exhibit in this regard, for here we have the world nearing the point where God has only a handful of souls that acknowledge Him in truth. God, fearing that the line to the coming Saviour would be extinguished altogether, as it is said, had to intervene and “time out” the wicked inhabitants by killing them and starting over with only His own. All of this is akin to a petulant child playing a game with an opponent who is whipping him soundly, getting extremely frustrated and flipping the board over, scattering pieces everywhere, then picking them up and resetting the board in a much more favorable position for a winning outcome. The Scriptures do not support this idea but rather the theme of DR. Notice:

Isaiah 54:7-9 For a small moment have I forsaken you; but with great mercies will I gather you. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on you, said the LORD your Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah to me...

Also we find in Job the same principle of giving the wicked over to the results of their own choices:

Job 22:15-17 Have you marked the old way which wicked men have trodden? 16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflowed with a flood: 17 Which said to God, Depart from us: and what can the Almighty do for them?

I believe that the final advance of the reformation; the key to the complete understanding of God’s glory (character); AND the core of the power of the fourth angel--that “glory angel” of Revelation 18 that comes in to join with the third angel’s message at last--is the view to the correct understanding of God’s character in relation to the use of force and violence.

“Jesus Christ is the Restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer. HERE is the conflict between the Prince of life and the prince of this world, the power of darkness…” {CTr 247.2, emphasis added}.

1 John 1:4-5 And these things write we to you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Life=light
Darkness=death

Death is not in God to give. Man can choose it and receive it, but the Source of life cannot produce it, any more than a source of physical light can produce darkness. Only when the light is disconnected does a state of darkness ensue, all as natural consequence.

So, Jesus withdraws His protection . . . and then what? What does He think will happen? Does He have any idea what nature, evil men, and evil angels will do? He knew a world-wide flood would kill everybody outside the Ark. How did sinning cause such a flood? How did wanton, calloused flesh-eating cause water above and below the earth to burst forth with such violence as to destroy the entire world? Here's how Jesus sees it:


Listen as Jesus, through the Spirit of Prophecy, describes penalty and punishment:


"These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty." "Thus God will destroy the wicked from off the earth." Obviously entropy is not the result of Jesus withdrawing His protection and permitting the forces of nature to unleash its pent up power. Nature is not self-acting.

Miller's rules of Biblical interpretation, quoting Ellen White:

"1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible; 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study; 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering; 4. To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every word have its proper influence; and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error; 5. Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." {RH, November 25, 1884 par. 24}

When you leave out references, you can come to the wrong conclusion.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

God is not the executioner. Sin pays its wage, death.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this [that sin causes death]. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin [sin causes death - not God - this is a key point in the Great Controvery]. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}


God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

God does not rule by the use of prevailing power. Rebellion is not overcome by force.

MM, please give evidence that you understand entropy.

Or give your substituted definition of entropy explaining why and how it is different from the ones I listed.

Or state that you do not believe entropy exists.

I think answering one of those is important given the title of this topic, no?

Without God, the forces that keep matter intact would not exist. That's as disorganized as it can get, I think - maximum entropy.

However, that is not to say that God can never accelerate the process of increasing entropy.