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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Elle]
#178868
01/01/16 04:33 PM
01/01/16 04:33 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
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So basically the Lord tells US in Deut 13 to test all things. The “US” is the individuals’ responsibility or as Ellen and James rightly puts it “our Christian’s duty”. Here's an example of it -- where yourself, kland and Prodigalone have failed the Deut 13 test in believing in a "shaking out" theory that was not shown in the past by the Lord. Elle, in what way do you classify me as such? The haze of confusion wafting up from you confuses me. The pulling in of various things lends to confusion. Am I saying that Ellen failed the Deut 13 test? No not at all. The Lord is not testing the prophet He has sent, but He is testing US if we are going to buy whatever they say without testing them. Verse 3 says “For the Lord your God proveth YOU” (not the prophet He has sent for the purpose to prove YOU).
In what way have we not tested her? Am I correct in attempting to part the haze that we are to understand you saying that Ellen White's writings are not to be trusted?
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#178935
01/06/16 01:30 PM
01/06/16 01:30 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
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In the December's Adventist World, Ted Wilson, in "Why I Support and the Bible Ellen White", said
I believe and attest that the writings of the Spirit of Prophecy are believable and true because Ellen G. White and her prophetic ministry pass the four biblical tests of a prophet: 1. Her writings agree with the Bible, fulfilling Isaiah 8:20. 2. Her life and works testify of her connection with God, fulfilling Matthew 7:20. 3. Her prophecies have come to pass, fulfilling Jeremiah 28:9. 4. Her writings lift up Christ and affirm Him as the Son of God, who came to this earth to save us, fulfilling 1 John 4:2.
Elle, do you agree or disagree with him?
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#186999
07/07/18 12:51 AM
07/07/18 12:51 AM
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Bumping this one, as I will be reviewing this thread.
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Elle]
#187003
07/07/18 06:20 AM
07/07/18 06:20 AM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Simply put; Ellen White passes the test of a prophet! May I ask which test you are referring? 1) Her doctrinal teachings are supported by the Bible. Namely, the Ten Commandments are still valid, the mortality of the soul, the sanctuary message, just to name a few. 2) The fruits of her life. (Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin) 3) Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and 18:22. And any other tests you may think of. I appreciate the answer. In respond to your 3 points in respective order : 1)I agree that some of Ellen comments is point on scriptures however some other are not. As we have seen in some discussion here that even some writings conflicts with earlier writings. We have also seen here too many times in discussions that both sides of an argument are using EGW to support their position. There's many reason for these. One major one that I now understand is that we do not understand what is a prophet. Prophets are people just like us that needs to grow into their calling. Meaning that at time prophets misunderstand the word given to them. For the norm, interpretation is absent from the prophetic word given; so the interpretation of the word is a mystery until the Lord provides the interpretation which often is later to the generation that the prophesy applies to. Also like any of us, they have their own misconception of who is the Lord. They do not see the Lord face to face yet or as He is yet. Prophetic words needs to be refined or defined by the Lord who will use other members of His body and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Like Abraham(see link), young prophets in training often mis-understood the word given to them. Interpretation of prophecies are often given and reserve for later generation that it applies to. So for most prophets in training, the first lesson to understand is they may not get the interpretation of the prophetic word and to shut their mouth and not treat their speculative interpretation as truth. Another major problem I see is to know which writings came from EGW's actual pen from those that are not. As I have expressed in " Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? " discussion.... until this canonizing is done, I think no one is in position to quote any of EGW writings as we do not know if it came from her pen at all, or from her large team, or from an extraction from another writer's book. 2)I do agree that Ellen life was a life of dedication. However I don't believe character or "the fruit of her life" is a Biblical test of a prophet. Mat 7 doesn't say that. I was trying to find the post where we had studied this in the past and I haven't still found it. When I'll find it, I'll get back to this point. 3)We have already discussed Deut 13 in " Should we quote EGW?. I think you need to re-read Deut 13. As I have said in that discussion, Deut 13 is about the Lord sending a prophet to test us(see link) if we will just take whatever the prophet says without testing it. Even those that comes to us with “[i]sign and wonder come to pass”(Deut 13:2), all their words still needs to be tested also. Fulfilled sign and wonder are not a test of a true prophet either according to Deut 13:2. Basically my understanding is no one should assume that at anytime that everything a certain person says is the word of God. Even Paul, whose testimony, conversion, work, miracles … were all quite amazing --- despite all his words needed to be tested by whom the Bereans were praised for doing so. In our Church, we should be praising anyone who test any of EGW’s writings or Church interpretations. But that is not the case, persecution is more the norm. So basically the Lord tells US in Deut 13 to test all things. The “US” is the individuals’ responsibility or as Ellen and James rightly puts it “our Christian’s duty”. Here's an example of it -- where yourself, kland and Prodigalone have failed the Deut 13 test in believing in a "shaking out" theory that was not shown in the past by the Lord. Am I saying that Ellen failed the Deut 13 test? No not at all. The Lord is not testing the prophet He has sent, but He is testing US if we are going to buy whatever they say without testing them. Verse 3 says “ For the Lord your God proveth YOU” (not the prophet He has sent for the purpose to prove YOU).
Blessings
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#187008
07/07/18 05:21 PM
07/07/18 05:21 PM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Regular Member
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
Colorado, USA
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In Australia Ellen White had an editor named Fannie Bolton. Repeatedly there were issues in which Fannie proudly desired greater recognition for her work and complained to others while overstating her own contributions. Ellen White would reprove her for this, several times dismissing her and just as often taking her back after Fannie confessed and insisted she was changed. "If she has done this work, which she has represented to others has been as much her talent, her production of ideas and construction of sentences, as mine, and in “beautiful language,” then she has done a work I have urged again and again should not be done.... And she is unworthy of any connection with this work." Letter 88, 1894 Ellen White wrote to Fannie- "Every time I can distinguish a word of yours, my pen crosses it out. I have so often told you that your words and ideas must not take the place of the words and ideas given me of God." Letter 7, 1894 "She had underscored some words in a book, Christian Temperance, “beautiful words,” she called them, and said that she had put in those words, they were hers. If this were the truth, I ask, Who told her to put in her words in my writings? She has, if her own statement is correct, been unfaithful to me. Sister Prescott, however, says that in the providence of God that very article came to them (Brother and Sister Prescott) uncopied and in my own handwriting, and that these very words were in that letter. So Fannie's statement regarding these words is proved to be untrue." Letter 102, 1895 Eventually Ellen White was determined that it was time for Fannie to be finally separated from her work. She was then given a message in vision that it had been right to disconnect with Fannie, but that Jesus was still her Redeemer and that Fannie would be ruined if left to herself. Ellen White took her back again and handed Fannie papers to edit. Fannie, of her own decision, declined. By this she showed that she had been changed from the proud glory seeking that she had previously felt from her involvement in the work. Fannie returned to America and wrote letters of confession and repentance. She was one of those editors who is claimed to have contributed so much to Ellen White's writings, but quoted below are her own words about this. Concerning the matter of which I have written to you before, I will say that there is no reason why you or anyone else should be thrown into perplexity. Sister White is the prophet of the Lord for the remnant church, and though the Lord has seen fit to choose one for this work who is not proficient in grammar and rhetoric, and this lack is supplied by others, yet she is responsible for every thought, for every expression, in her writings. Every manuscript that is edited goes back to her for examination, and this work committed to those who have been called to labor in this branch is not done without prayer and consecration. “The word of the Lord” comes to her; but if in [the word's] passing through the human channel, the human imperfection in education leaves its impress, why should it be a perplexity if God should lay upon another the trifling duty of putting the subject of a sentence in harmony with its verb, or the number or gender of a thing mentioned in harmony with the fact that determines the number and gender? There are many ways of expressing the same thought. We may say, “Sit down,” “Take a chair”: “The sun shines,” “It is a bright day,” “The atmosphere is illuminated,” and not mar the thought in using different words. Now as far as changing Sister White's expressions are concerned, I can say that just as far as it is consistent with grammar and rhetoric, her expressions are left intact.—DF 445b, Fannie Bolton to Miss Malcolm, November 11, 1894. Seven years later, in 1901, she wrote: The editors in no wise change Sister White's expression if it is grammatically correct, and is an evident expression of the evident thought. Sister White, as human instrumentality, has a pronounced style of her own, which is preserved all through her books and articles, that stamps the matter with her individuality. Many times her manuscript does not need any editing, often but slight editing, and again, a great deal of literary work; but article or chapter, whatever has been done upon it, is passed back into her hands by the editor, and the Spirit of Prophecy then appropriates the matter, and it becomes, when approved, the chosen expression of the Spirit of God.—DF 445a, “A Confession Concerning the Testimony of Jesus Christ,” written in early 1901 to “Dear Brethren in the Truth.” Ellen G. White: The Australian Years: 1891-1900 (Vol. 4), Pages 240-249
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#189512
05/23/19 04:04 AM
05/23/19 04:04 AM
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Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
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This conversation was begun between JAK and myself in another thread, a portion of which I place in the text box below. The question came up as to why or why not should one accept Mrs. White as a prophet. I'm especially interested in JAK's or in anyone else's perspective as to why they might not choose to accept her writings as inspired. Just curious, GC, as to why Johann can't use Ellen White in his response. Or do you consider Ellen White in the category of sola scriptura? I consider her writings to be scripture. If I say want to distinguish between them, I use "Bible" and "Mrs. White." Both are part of the "spirit of prophecy." I would be happy to have Johann post support for his view from Mrs. White's writings. I think he does not do so because she does not support his view the way he would like. Mrs. White was abundantly clear on the headship issue. She criticizes ungodly men for lording it over their wives when they themselves are not subject to Christ, but completely upholds the husband's place as the head of the house when he is subject to Christ. This is balanced, and according to the Bible. Blessings, Green Cochoa. I consider her writings to be scripture. If I say want to distinguish between them, I use "Bible" and "Mrs. White." Both are part of the "spirit of prophecy." For the record, I categorically reject the inclusion of the writings of Ellen White, whatever you term her, as part of Scripture. I would be happy to have Johann post support for his view from Mrs. White's writings. I think he does not do so because she does not support his view the way he would like. Sounds to me like you are judging his motives... For the record, I categorically reject the inclusion of the writings of Ellen White, whatever you term her, as part of Scripture. For the record, the Bible itself defines what scripture is. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16)
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21) According to the Bible, scripture is given under inspiration of God. Was Ellen White inspired? Very definitely. Are her writings suitable for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness? I hold that they are, and God Himself has tasked Ellen White with all of these things, often bringing special messages to individuals of correction and reproof. Unless you believe that the Holy Spirit can somehow inspire one person less than another, as if there were two different "levels" of "Holy Spirit," how could one see two different prophets and think one wrote "scripture" and the other's writings were common and ordinary? According to Jesus, the greatest prophet was John the Baptist. He did not write anything. Ellen White wrote more than any Bible author, including Moses and Paul and all of the Bible authors put together. She called her writings the "lesser light leading to the greater light of the Bible." The Bible is also the lesser light leading to the greater light. The "greater light of the Bible" is Jesus. There is none greater than He. He gave us the same message in John 5:39, saying "Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." Jesus is saying the scriptures are lesser and lead to Himself. As Ellen White was inspired by God to write the things which she wrote, her writings are equal to those of other Bible authors who were likewise inspired by God. All prophets are like the moon, the lesser light. They can only reflect that which is given them by God. Jesus is as the sun, the greater light--the source of all light and truth. This is why I accept that Ellen White's writings are scripture. This is why her statements on headship, the topic for this thread, are valid and important, just as they would be for any other topic on which she may have written. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Was Ellen White inspired? Very definitely. This is YOUR OPINION, which I don't happen to share. Blessings, Green Cochoa. It is something each person has to decide in his own mind, and only the Holy Spirit can guide..
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Rick H]
#189516
05/23/19 07:51 AM
05/23/19 07:51 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2020
Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
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Why or why not accept and believe in God as the Creator of all things and maker of man in His image. While this is a legitimate question in its own right, it has no bearing on the topic at hand, and is at best only distantly tangentially related. Man has to come up with a alternative that the universe just appeared by itself somehow and we come from lower forms of life somehow, think about it... As with the above statement, assigning motive, then attacking the motive, does not add anything to the conversation.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Nadi]
#189517
05/23/19 08:06 AM
05/23/19 08:06 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2020
Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
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What SDA theology consistently fails to do is to SHOW CLEARLY that God/Scripture has Ellen White in mind when it speaks of the spirit of prophecy. While I agree with all Scriptural statements regarding the spirit of prophecy, I DO NOT agree that this applies to EGW.
So posters to this thread would do well to concentrate efforts on clearly establishing the authenticity of EGW's calling to the prophetic office. (Something along the lines of "And in the last days I shall raise up a woman, and she shall be called Ellen the White, and she shall lead you into all truth, etc., etc. would be good) All else is speculation and fabrication, and misapplying Scripture.
And no matter how much you firmly believe it, that doesn't make it true. Belief is not proof.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Why or why not accept Mrs. White as a prophet?
[Re: Nadi]
#189518
05/23/19 10:17 AM
05/23/19 10:17 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God, the Son of Man, the Messiah foretold in the Bible. The joy, peace, hope, love I experience as a result of believing Jesus is my friend and Savior is all the evidence I need to believe it is true. When I read the SOP I feel the same way about Jesus. I am thrilled Jesus gifted Ellen White with the spirit of prophecy, and empowered her to share in print moving and motivating insights into the loving mind and heart of God. By faith I trust Jesus raised her up to help guide us home. I cannot imagine rejecting this gift of God or refusing to read and heed it.
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