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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: His child] #179421
02/13/16 06:28 PM
02/13/16 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: His child
I await your reply from the pen of EGW.


Here's one that I never noticed before today. E. G. White identifies "kings and rulers" who war against the saint at the end as the dragon:
Quote:
Kings and rulers and governors have placed upon themselves the brand of antichrist, and are represented as the dragon who goes to make war with the saints--with those who keep the commandments of God and who have the faith of Jesus. TM 39.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #179422
02/13/16 06:34 PM
02/13/16 06:34 PM
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This ties in nicely with this passage:
Quote:
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,[the dragon] gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #179424
02/13/16 06:44 PM
02/13/16 06:44 PM
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So if we identify the Beast as all of the Reformers did, the Papacy; the dragon as Ellen White does above, then by elimination, the false prophet is either apostate Protestantism or Spiritualism. Since fallen Protestantism ultimately comes under the complete control of Spiritualism the two become one - fallen Protestantism/Spiritualism.

So the identities are, imo:

Beast = Papacy
Dragon = Kings of the Earth
False Prophet = Apostate Protestantism under the control of Spiritualism.

What do you think?

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #179425
02/13/16 07:02 PM
02/13/16 07:02 PM
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His Child: You may be thinking of this quote:
Quote:
By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}

The reference above to the three fold union doesn't directly tie the three frogs that issue from the mouths of the beast, dragon and false prophet to those entities I've listed but the implied connection is fairly strong. It's a blessing to me that this came up just now because in the back of my mind I've been wanting to nail down the identity of these three for a few weeks or more but haven't taken the time to study it. To have that first quote dropped in my lap today by the Lord was an unexpected gift - like a nugget thrown my way without any effort on my part.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #179426
02/13/16 07:18 PM
02/13/16 07:18 PM
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Karen and all, Heidi Heiks recently released his study on the fifth trumpet. What follows are a few of his introductory comments. Notice the quote from Ellen White placing the woes, all three of them, in the future in the context of the final warning messages. Besides David Gates, Heiks is the only main-line author or minister that I'm aware of who has seen the light on this. Heiks states:


The fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets of Revelation 9 and 11, or the three woes of Revelation 8: 13., are both units, both a continuation and an expansion of three successive events that bring the great controversy to its close. The fifth trumpet reveals what initiates the woes soon to befall "the inhabiters of the earth." Rev. 8: 13.
Quote:
Those who have been self-indulgent and ready to yield to pride and fashion and display, will sneer at the conscientious, truth-loving, God-fearing people, and will, in this work, sneer at the God of heaven Himself. The Bible is disregarded, the wisdom of men exalted, and Satan and the man of sin worshiped by the wisdom of this age, while the angel is flying through the midst of heaven crying 'Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth.' (Revelation 8: 13).

I have been shown that the hand of the Lord is stretched out already to punish those who will become monuments of divine displeasure and holy vengeance, for the day of recompense has come when men who exalted the man of sin in the place of Jehovah in worshiping an idol sabbath in the place of the Sabbath of the Lord Jehovah will find it a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, for he is a consuming fire.

Ellen White obviously places the three woes of Revelation as sounding post-1844. We have assumed, and even so stated, that the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy are silent on the signal event that sets in motion the visible, tangible event to be witnessed by all of humanity simultaneously-a still-future event that commences the official march to battle by the confederated forces of evil-to the battle of Armageddon. This event will render the word atheism a bygone term in the thoughts of humanity; every living human will be mindful of God. H Heiks The Three Woes of Revelation January 2016

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #179433
02/14/16 03:57 AM
02/14/16 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: His child
I await your reply from the pen of EGW.


Here's one that I never noticed before today. E. G. White identifies "kings and rulers" who war against the saint at the end as the dragon:
Quote:
Kings and rulers and governors have placed upon themselves the brand of antichrist, and are represented as the dragon who goes to make war with the saints--with those who keep the commandments of God and who have the faith of Jesus. TM 39.


This fits the scenario that I presented perfectly. Thank you.


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #179434
02/14/16 04:25 AM
02/14/16 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
This ties in nicely with this passage:
Quote:
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,[the dragon] gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


The kings of the earth though acting on Satan's behalf do not necessarily symbolize the dragon.

The great red dragon in Rev 12 had 7-heads depicting: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, and papal Rome. To conclude that Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, or papal Rome depicted Satan would be incorrect. He used these powers, but papal Rome is identified as the in the very next chapter as the beast and the dragon is not the beast. So in spite of the assumptions, the conclusion is wrong.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Many will honestly search the Word for Light as those in the past have searched it; and they see light in the Word. But they did not pass over the ground in their experience, when these messages of warning were first proclaimed. Not having had this experience, some do not appreciate the value of the truths that have been to us as waymarks, and that have made us as a peculiar people what we are. They do not make a right application of the Scriptures, and thus they frame theories that are not correct. It is true that they quote an abundance of Scripture, and teach much that is true; but truth is so mixed with error as to lead to wrong conclusions. Yet because they can weave Scripture into their theories, they think that they have a straight chain of truth. Many who did not have an experience in the rise of the messages, accept these erroneous theories, and are led into false paths, backward instead of forward. This is the enemy's design. {2SM 110.4}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #179436
02/14/16 06:06 AM
02/14/16 06:06 AM
His child  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
So if we identify the Beast as all of the Reformers did, the Papacy; the dragon as Ellen White does above, then by elimination, the false prophet is either apostate Protestantism or Spiritualism. Since fallen Protestantism ultimately comes under the complete control of Spiritualism the two become one - fallen Protestantism/Spiritualism.

So the identities are, imo:

Beast = Papacy
Dragon = Kings of the Earth
False Prophet = Apostate Protestantism under the control of Spiritualism.

What do you think?



Beast = Papacy [Pope Francis I]

Dragon = Kings of the Earth = a particular king of the earth
*he is identified in Revelation 17:10-11 & 20
"And there are seven kings [post-1929 popes who had their kingdom restored to them by Mussolini]: five are fallen [Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, & John-Paul I], and one is [John-Paul II], and the other is not yet come [Benedict XVI]; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space [7 # of completeness (2005 his ascension year) his first year began on New year's day on Babylonian calendar 29 March 2006 and he left office 28 February 2013 a month short of completeness].
And the beast that was [John-Paul II], and is not [he died], even he [John-Paul II] is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Rev_17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Rev 20:2-3 "And he [angel from Heaven] laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Dragon = Satan who ascends from the bottomless pit posing as king/pope John-Paul II the pope that was and is dead who is the eighth and is of the 7.

Originally Posted By: EGW
"As the second appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ draws near, satanic agencies are moved from beneath [THE BOTTOMLESS PIT]. Satan will not only appear as a human being[JOHN-PAUL II], but he will personate Jesus Christ; and the world who has rejected the truth will receive him as the Lord of lords and King of kings. He will exercise his power, and work upon the human imagination. He will corrupt both the minds and the bodies of men, and will work through the children of disobedience, fascinating and charming, as does a serpent. What a spectacle will the world be for heavenly intelligences! What a spectacle for God, the Creator of the world, to behold! The form Satan assumed in Eden when leading our first parents to transgress, was of a character to bewilder and confuse the mind. He will work in as subtle a manner as we near the end of earth's history. All his deceiving power will be brought to bear upon human subjects, to complete the work of deluding the human family. So deceptive will be his working..." {RH, April 14, 1896 par. 6}


Originally Posted By: EGW
"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul, and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome." {GC88 588.1}


Satan personating John-Paul II can deceive the world with his "spiritual body" and remind them of Dies Domini (JP II's teaching of "Sunday sacredness").

John 20:27 "Then saith he [Jesus] to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."

John 16:4 "But these things have I [Jesus] told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them."

False Prophet = Pope Benedict XVI.

Jeremiah 14:14 "Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart."

2Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Beast = Pope Francis I
Dragon = Satan as John-Paul II
False Prophet = Benedict XVI.

How many kings did Babylon have when it fell?

King Nabonidus
King Belshazzar
King Daniel

Daniel 5:29 "Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom."

Originally Posted By: EGW
"Study the Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated... We, with all our religious advantages, ought to know far more today than we do know." {SpTA07 55.1}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #179437
02/14/16 06:24 AM
02/14/16 06:24 AM
His child  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
His Child: You may be thinking of this quote:
Quote:
By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {Mar 190.2}

The reference above to the three fold union doesn't directly tie the three frogs that issue from the mouths of the beast, dragon and false prophet to those entities I've listed but the implied connection is fairly strong. It's a blessing to me that this came up just now because in the back of my mind I've been wanting to nail down the identity of these three for a few weeks or more but haven't taken the time to study it. To have that first quote dropped in my lap today by the Lord was an unexpected gift - like a nugget thrown my way without any effort on my part.


Hey Mark

Definitely NOT thinking of that quote in this context. I know that GW was placed in office by a protestant mandate and he physically reached his hand across the gulf to clasp the hand of the Roman power to present Pope John-Paul II with a gold medal in 2004. Then GW physically reached his hand across the gulf to clasp the hand of spiritualism to present the Dalai Lama with a gold medal in 2008.

And this exact quote appears with spiritualism listed first and the Roman power second. Thus after giving the Dalai Lama the gold medal, GW received Pope Benedict as a guest to the White House on 15 April clasping the hand of the roman power.

And since the union of GW, the pope, and the leader of spiritualism, America has repudiated every principle of our constitution. And I could tell you about something that is about to happen that will grind the Constitution into the dust...

Thank you for your thoughts. If you have any solid evidence from the Bible or Spirit of Prophecy to make your point, I'm still open to consider it.

Christian regards


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #179485
02/21/16 02:15 AM
02/21/16 02:15 AM
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Karen Y  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick


Beast = Papacy
Dragon = Kings of the Earth
False Prophet = Apostate Protestantism under the control of Spiritualism.

What do you think?


The three unclean spirits are named after their religious influences which all have received their powers from the Dragon, the Satan. Therefore, it is incorrect to interpret the dragon of the three unclean spirits as 'kings of the earth'.

Pastor Kenneth Cox has explained in his latest book, Four Winds of Revelation, about the three unclean spirits.
Quote:
What do the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet have in common? They each have "unclean spirits like frogs" coming out of their mouths. And how do frogs catch their prey? With their tongues. These false prophets seek to deceive others via their spiritual beliefs. The dragon's belief is paganism; the beast's is Roman catholicism; and the false prophet's is apostate Protestantism. Therefore, whatever the three unite on, it must be something on which paganism, Catholicism, and Protestantism all agree. Four Winds of Revelation page 61-62, Pacific Press Publishing Association July 2015

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