Either they bear fruit of the Spirit or they will perish, God will cut them out of his garden, there is no other way.

Luke 13King James Version (KJV)

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

You are adding to this text. It doesn't mention anything about what you say "that out choice for salvation is only granted in this life". There's no mention of that at all in that text. You are extending your deduction that the text doesn't mention.

The text only says the following :

#1 "It is appointed to man to die ONCE" : which I believe everyone would agree that it is talking about the physical natural death of the body that Jesus defined as a sleep.

#2 "And after this the judgment" : which we know it is the Great White throne Judgment define in Rev 20 that take place after the Millennium.


Man Appointed to Die ONCE -- not TWICE

I have read some Universalist believers using this text to prove that scripture says man can only die the 1st death(the physical death) once. Since the Lord is resurrecting everyone after they had already died once, then it is impossible that they will die the physical death again -- a SECOND TIME.

I do think the Universalist have a point.


Death Cast in Lake of Fire BEFORE the People

Plus the Universalist use the scripture in Rev 20:14 that says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." And they reason by saying since death was destroyed in the fire BEFORE the people were cast in the lake of fire in v. 15. than it is impossible for them to die again.

Because of these two texts (and other) Universalist believe that the "lake of fire" has to be symbolic.

However, those that believe in FOREVER BURNING IN A LITTERAL LAKE OF FIRE, also uses these same reasoning of Heb 9:27 & Rev 20:14 that Universalist uses to prove a forever burning for they cannot die the first death twice and death was destroyed before they were cast in the Literal fire. By which I think they have more of a biblical stand than SDAs annihilation position as we also teach a literal lake of fire interpretation as they do. We just don't believe in a forever burning; but they have a stronger biblical stand than we do and our interpretation conflicts with these two texts.

I don't believe that the book of Revelation is to be taken LITERALLY, John saw things that were presented to him in a symbolic language. Nor do I like to use these PROOF texts. I rather test interpretation on what the law says(Is 8:20) and understand it for it is prophetic laying out the plan of salvation that the Lord has in mind and will fulfill.


Universalist Vs. Restitution of all things

So this is why I do not fit in the camp of "Universalist" by which these people base their belief on some Grace texts and other NT texts. They do not believe in the fulfillment of the Law and have also nail the laws to the cross like most Christians(including SDAs) has done.

I am a firm believer of the "restitution of all things"(Acts 3:21) which is the central purpose of the Great White Throne. According to the judgments of the law given to Moses, justice is not rendered without restitution is rendered to the victim. In the law it was often equated by a sum of money rendered by the equivalence of the loss or damages that needed to be paid by the offender depending on the judgment prescribed in the law. Thus is everyone is Annihilated like we SDAs are taught to believe; then justice according to the law is not rendered because there's has been no "restitution of all things".


Heb 9:27 doesn't say that. Do you have another text to support this speculation? As far as I know, there's no text that says that.


That's not true. There is a LAW that is call the second Passover found in Number 9.

The Second Passover

This law is for the people that have missed the first Passover because (Num 9:6-10):

a) they "were defiled by the dead body of a man" : which those that resurrect after the Millennium are still MORTAL thus defiled by their own dead(mortal) body.

b) "be in a journey afar off" : that represent all of those that were far off from the Lord

Thus the Lord has made provision by Law that allows anyone after death that have mist the FIRST Passover for the reason listed above that they can keep the SECOND Passover and be justified by the blood of Jesus also.

Maybe you missed the part, "in conjunction with the other verses".

What is happening with death and hell? Didn't you say that when people are thrown in the Lake of Fire, that means they are being taught the law? Are death and hell being taught the law also?

I believe being thrown in the Lake of Fire means being destroyed - ceasing to exist - whether it is literal or symbolic of the exact mechanism for destruction. Therefore, death and hell are destroyed, like the impenitent.

??? And the next verse doesn't either say or implied what Daryl has deducted.

AV Hb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them [the overcomers] that look for him shall he appear the second time [Jesus 2nd coming] without sin unto salvation."

V.28 describe the judgment said in v.27 -- that really technically begin at Jesus 2nd coming when He & His overcomers will start establishing the Melchisedek reign and intercession. But later at the Great White throne is when all, great and small, will be judged.


Death(the physical) is not the end road for salvation

If that were so, then the following would not be possible:

-"for every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that He is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 3:10, 11).
-for God to be "the savior of all men, especially those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10).
- for all of creation to come into subjection to Christ.(Heb. 2:8)
- for "all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim 2:4)
- for "dead men" to pay restitution for their sins as the law prescribes and teaches
- for justice to be rendered to all the victims of sins
- to fulfill the law of Jubilee where the Lord set a time limit for which we labor under the taskmaster of sin. The law establish that debt-bondage was limited to a maximum of 50 years which was the prophetic pattern(TYPE) of His plan of salvation.


The Great White Throne Judgment

At the Great White Throne, that's when all men will come to know the truth of the Great plan of salvation. All will be judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13) and according to their level of knowledge and responsibility.

This judgment will not be in any form of torture, for there is no torture in the divine law.

Men will be required to pay restitution for their sin. Yet since there will be no way that any man could ever pay the penalty for his own sins, he will be “sold” (Ex. 22:3) and will be placed under the authority of the overcomers who will teach him the ways of God. Not via oppression or abuse like the Israelites have applied the Jubilee law in the past, but by manifesting the love of Christ as a benevolent master-priest.

The Purpose of working off the debt incurred by sin

At the great Jubilee, all of creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom. 8:21). Their freedom is not be based upon their ability to work off their salvation and pay their debt that was incurred by sin. This Jesus has paid the full price for the entire world.

The purpose of this working judgment time was to teach them RIGHTEOUSNESS -- "for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Is 26:9) Jesus does not impute our trespasses unto us(2Cor 5:19) by this; however it doesn't mean He cannot use our sins to correct us and teach us His laws. All earthly parents does the same thing with their children.

The liberty of all men will be based upon the pure mercy and grace of God which is the foundation of the Jubilee Law.


The FirstFruits of Salvation Manifested at Jesus 2nd coming

So Heb. 9:28 tells us that this entire process of judgment begins with the second coming of Christ, when “those who eagerly await Him” (the overcomers) will be the first fruits of creation to receive the glorified body. Since the first fruits sanctify the rest of the harvest, thus all of creation "waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19) which are the overcomers. "Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God". (Rom 8:21) Seeing the FirstFruits (the overcomers) will be the primary sign confirming their own redemption in the end of time.

Remember, in the Law there are 3 harvests: the overcomers is the first one which is the Barley harvest, then the wheat harvest which are the believers, and last the grape harvest which are the unbelievers.

I hope you can show me what exactly is the confusion that is presented besides just mentioning it.

I'm most of the time quite detailed in my postings expressing the best I can what my understanding is and my biblical sources for my understanding; so that anyone that sees an error or confusion can bring it forth.


OK, are you saying the battery is the breath of life??? Could you be more specific and tell us what do you understand the breath of life means in Gen 2:7?

Body + breath = LIVING soul Tell me what is exactly the soul without the living part? Or let me put it this way Ps 16:8-11 says the soul goes to Scheol(Hades) when it dies(not living). So what exactly goes to Scheol -- the battery-breath?

Dedication and I both agree that the soul is "think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. They have character." and is the "essence" of the individual. In quotes are dedications words, not mine and they reflect exactly what I was saying.

Do you agree with the above?

We both agree that the soul cannot exist without the body and that the soul dies.

I assume you agree with the above is as this is SDA standard belief.



There we go again -- casting the same fearful warnings.

????
This is what I was referring to and what you said:


I did tell you in post#179538 that the narrow road -- this "few" -- applies to the 2nd coming of Jesus when only the Overcomers will resurrect to reign with Christ during the Millennium. This few does NOT apply to those at the 2nd resurrection - the broad road. I even bold it and supersized the text as such :


Maybe you didn't read that big section in my post and just missed it.

So I did assumed that you had read it and since you quoted only the section about those that resurrect after the Millennium; so I tried to address that group -- and yes I did assumed you held the standard believe that only those that resurrect at the 1st resurrection gets life, and those that resurrect at the 2nd don't -- they get annihilated.


You simply missed what I said in that post.


No, you really mis-understood and I will take the blame for it as I know I'm not that great in putting thoughts into words. I said the 2nd death is a spiritual death where the mind(=soul) submits to Jesus. The destruction of the soul is basically destroying the pride of man that is in the mind which then leads to repentance.


I never talk about obedience directly as I didn't want to make things longer that it was already. So I never said what you assumed above nor do I believe in this. I had talked about hearing-obeying the Lord so many times in so numerous discussion that I recall once or twice you were involve in them; I assumed you knew my position on this. But I did mention in this discussion when I replied to you that anyone risen at the 2nd resurrection has to go thru the spiritual growth of Pentecost that is required by ALL including those that goes in the lake of fire which is all about learning to hear-obey the voice of God. Hear and Obey is the same Hebrew word -- shama, and they are used interchangeably for you cannot obey without hearing, and vice versa.


Sorry to sound like a sermon and it appears that I have annoyed you. The fact of the situation is that since I come from the other spectrum of a view; it has to be explained why and what biblical source that led me to believe in such. Also the fact that many has nailed the laws to the cross and don't reflect on it; and truth hinges on this(Is 8:20) is another problem and it needs to be explained. I try to be as brief as I can, but I do know I have a problem in not being succint.


???Impenitent? I never said that. I said that all will repent and submit to the Lord's judgment and leadings.
hmmm.

I don't believe the narrow gate represents the first resurrection, nor do I believe the broad one represents the second. I believe the narrow way represents the path to life, or the process of living a sanctified, faith-filled life. When Jesus comes, the rewards and punishments spoken of in the Bible's last chapter will be handed out, but the "way" in which people have lived and formed their characters up to that time will determine whether they are saved (both from sin and from death) or lost/destroyed. The resurrections are simply the results of "way" in which people have lived. Jesus is the "way, the truth, and the life." If we live in Jesus, we have eternal life, even now (see John 3:36).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes I did say fire = law; but No, I said the lake of fire is symbolic of the execution of the sentence pronounced at the Great White throne. I must of confused you when I explained that Daniel saw the throne & wheels in fire, and a river of fire, and that John saw the continuation of that fire into a lake. Sorry about that. Yes while serving their sentence in the lake of fire, they are being taught the law but via the judgment or sentence pronounced as quoted in Isaiah 26:9,10. I hope that is more clear. Sorry again for the confusion.

Are you serious? Are death and hades some people that were judge at the Great White Throne? I don't think so.

However since I believe all the people will repent as the Lord has sworn this will happened in Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 They will say of Me, “Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength…”

and Paul expands on this prophetic statement in Phil. 2:9 "Therefore also God highly exalted Him [Jesus Christ], and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

And Paul says in 1 Cor. 12:3 “no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit.” To me this is a genuine repentance that can take place at no other time than after receiving their judgment at the Great White Throne and learning all the truth at that time(1Tim 2:4).

So since I do believe they will repent -- wouldn't that put them in the road to life from that point on?

Thus since Jesus said that he had the keys of death and hades in His possession in Rev 1:18; so possibly Rev 20:14 could means that since everyone has repented after the judgment, death is irrelevant now by this sure road to life and "all which He[Father] hath given me I should lose nothing" John 6:39. And no-one is in hades(=unseen) anymore since they were all resurrected -- right?


Do you believe the baptism of fire of the Holy Spirit destroys physically a person? Remember Daniel's 3 friends. They were in a literal fire, not even a symbolic fire, and they were not even destroyed because Jesus was with them.

So it is interesting that you said above such an extreme opposite view, that whether it is a symbolic lake of fire or not it will still physically destroy them. Shows that your mind is quite firm on this. Not even a "thus says the Lord" as "I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.". You must believe the Lord doesn't always really mean what He says or that text doesn't say what it says. Also you must not be aware that the Lord said twice that passing children thru a literal fire never even came into his mind.

Not the lake of fire at the end -- it is not symbolic, it is literal.
Satan is cast into the lake of fire --
Are you saying he will be saved too?

He will be destroyed.
And so will everyone cast into the lake of fire whose name is not written in the book of life.

Sodom and Gomorrah are a type of this lake of fire.
It was not a matter of having their "souls" destroyed and their bodies living. They died -- soul and body.

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
19:29 God destroyed the cities of the plain

Luke 17:28-30 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

There was nothing symbolic about the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah -- it was literal resulting in total destruction of those cities and its inhabitants.

We are not to make things symbolic that are obviously literal.

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 20:9 and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[/u]




Those text do NOT say the people repent.



Allegiance is an ADDED word, not part of scripture.

Every knee will bow and everyone will "swear".
THE WORD ALLEGIANCE IS NOT PART OF THE VERSE.

Read the whole context:

God is calling people to look to Him for salvation.

45:22-24 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

So what is the text saying?

The time will come -- and we know it will be at the white throne judgment, when everyone will realize that it was true, there was salvation only in Christ.

The word "swear" does NOT mean give allegiance
That word "allegiance" was added to the text, it's not part of the text.

To swear means to speak under oath, or to adjure.
Like -- "I adjure you to tell me the truth"
It means to tell the truth under oath.

Thus, yes, everyone before the white throne will bow, and confuse the truth -- Salvation was only in Christ.

That does NOT mean they repent,
It simply means those who rejected Christ, acknowledge the truth concerning what they rejected, they acknowledge the truth that they rejected life. They will confuss that salvation was only in Christ.

Remember -- the word "allegiance" is not part of that scripture, it was added.
To "swear" simply means they acknowledge the truth.



The same in Paul's writing:
Therefore also God highly exalted Him [Jesus Christ], and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/b]"

That does not say they all repent.
They will confess that that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Even Satan will confess that.
But they do not repent.
Everyone will acknowledge that God was just, that He had desired their salvation -- had fully provided for their salvation and had offered it to them during their lives, which they fully realize they rejected, but they don't repent.



Sometime before the second coming the final pronouncement is made:

Rev. 22:11 He that is unjust, let him remain unjust: and he which is filthy, let him remain filthy: and he that is righteous, let him remain righteous: and he that is holy, let him remain holy.
22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
22:15 For outside the city are the sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Rev.2:10-11 be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.