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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Elle] #180514
05/09/16 04:33 PM
05/09/16 04:33 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle
looks like there's confusion about what constitute the second death.

We know Jesus defined the two births.
....... the first birth is physical, the second is spiritual.

It's the same with the two deaths.
.........the first is physical, the second is spiritual.

The spiritual death is the death we die at our baptism,
............................is the death Paul said he dies daily.
............................is the death Jesus died at Getsamy when he gave his will up and submitted to the Father's will instead.
............................is the death we also die every time we give up our own will, and follow the Father's will.
............................is the death (submitting to the Father's will) Jesus died at his baptism
............................is the same death (submitting to the Father's will) we die at our own baptism.

kland ask if this second death equal life? i said not really not right away. it does lead to life thought .... we need to die this second death untill the LORD brings us to the ultimate DEATH END....when we are willing to become a TOTAL LIVING SACRIFICE by putting our entire life to the side for others. This is the ultimate second death that leads to the cross(figuratively speaking). When we reach this-- giving up our life to become a living sacrifice for others-- is when we have become mature and reached 'Sonship' become a true SON shares the Father's burden to work for others to bring them also into the Father's ultimate rest. The ultimate Sabbath rest is when we cease of all our own works(in all words or in all deeds) at all time and like Jesus only speaks what the Father told Him to say and only does what he saw the father doing. There's no rest or life without reaching that level.
Would you be saying that those who refuse Christ will have a forced "baptism"?

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Alchemy] #180515
05/09/16 04:36 PM
05/09/16 04:36 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
It just seems to me that those who insist that God never kills anyone are going to have a lot of trouble with the second death and the flood, as well as other instances.

God is Life! Yet, because of the entrance of sin, there is now death available. And yes, death is the absence of God who is life. God is never a hateful tyrant even when He is executing judgment. Amen! So, let us turn away from sin so we can have life in God. (Deut. 30:17-20)
If death is the absence of God, then why do you think God needs to kill those who choose to be absent from Him?

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180574
05/16/16 10:39 PM
05/16/16 10:39 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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The Bible speaks so plainly about this that even a child should be able to understand it, therefore, why do some try to make the Bible say what it doesn't say?

When the Bible was inspired to be written, it wasn't to be so complicated that we had to be a Philadelphia lawyer to understand it, but that is what the devil would want a lot of people to think.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180581
05/17/16 09:27 PM
05/17/16 09:27 PM
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kland  Offline
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Are you talking about not everyone being saved?
Or are you talking about the Bible is clear that God kills?
For instance, regarding Saul the Bible says:

1Ch 10:14 But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Clear enough for a child?
Or not?

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180586
05/20/16 02:14 AM
05/20/16 02:14 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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This thread is about whether or not everybody who ever lived on this earth will ultimately be saved.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: kland] #180595
05/22/16 01:41 PM
05/22/16 01:41 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: kland
Are you talking about not everyone being saved?
Or are you talking about the Bible is clear that God kills?
For instance, regarding Saul the Bible says:

1Ch 10:14 But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Clear enough for a child?
Or not?


Is the question this; Has God ever personally killed someone? - or - Has God ever had someone killed?

The answer is both.

As far as Daryl's point of what this thread is to be about; No! Ultimately, many if not most human beings that have ever lived will be destroyed by God. It's called the Lake of Fire.

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180597
05/22/16 03:03 PM
05/22/16 03:03 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: alchemy
Is the question this; Has God ever personally killed someone? - or - Has God ever had someone killed?

The answer is both.

As far as Daryl's point of what this thread is to be about; No! Ultimately, many if not most human beings that have ever lived will be destroyed by God. It's called the Lake of Fire.
Conclusion - God is the ultimate destroyer. And sin does not kill, God kills. NO!

Yes, sinners die, but why? That should be the question one asks.

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

But
not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

Understanding how sinner die is a central theme of the Great Controvery over the character and government of God. Sin is THE cause of death. The inevitable results of sin is death, not execution by God.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: APL] #180604
05/24/16 10:41 AM
05/24/16 10:41 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
APL wrote;

"Conclusion - God is the ultimate destroyer. And sin does not kill, God kills. NO!"

Odd statement. Sin reaps death and destruction, but, God is the one who brings this death and destruction. Why else would God resurrect all the wicked after the 1000 years? And yes, there is much more to this point than the destruction of the wicked, yet, God does destroy the wicked.

Satan and the evil angels aren't destroying themselves.

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180611
05/24/16 05:23 PM
05/24/16 05:23 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: alchemy
Satan and the evil angels aren't destroying themselves.
Please - reread the quote from The Desire of Ages immediately above and tell me what you think that the angels did not understand. Here is part of it:

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. {DA 764.2}

What did the angels not understand?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180614
05/24/16 07:00 PM
05/24/16 07:00 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,431
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There is no life apart from God.

Not only is sin destructive which is seen in the miserable conditions this world is in -- but also
sin separates us from God, the source of life.

The only reason anyone who sinned or is sinning, angel or human, is alive, is because God sustains that life, INSPITE of sin, to
1. reveal the true nature of sin in contrast to His ways
2. to give us humans a chance to turn from sin to our Savior who offers life eternal to all who will come to Him.
Everyone has the choice to follow Christ or by choice or default follow satan.

God could simply step out of the picture and allow life to cease, but that is not the plan of salvation.
He seeks to save as many as possible.
-- His purpose is not only to show the destructiveness of sin, but also to show why some sinners are saved while others are lost (which is the topic of this thread by the way).

If He simply stepped back -- everyone would die.
But Christ came to save, but why does He save some and not others?

The rebellious heart must reveal itself in contrast to the loyal heart.

This was true in the first war in heaven. EGW comments that God ALLOWED the war for this very purpose. He could have just blown all the rebellious angels out of heaven by one breath, without any war, but would this have satisfied everyone that He was "just"? It wasn't all that clear as to which side every angel was on -- so "In this battle every angel would choose his own side, and be manifested to all...that they had learned the lesson of genuine rebellion against the unchangeable law of God; and this is incurable." (1SP 23)

They would openly show -- while having full knowledge of the goodness and righteousness of God, that they would fight against God Himself.

The same will take place after the 1000 years.
The question must be settled for all time -- why are some saved and others lost (all sinned). It's all about rebellion and loyalty. The lost will show their hearts are incurable steeped in rebellion. The saved have fully given their hearts to Christ in trust and loyalty.
Thus the battle -- Satan's last war against God, seeking to tear Him from His throne, conquer the beloved city and set up his own throne.

God's loyal people will look in vain to see any genuine change of heart in those outside the city. With one united effort they will come with full intentions to capture the beloved city and dethrone God.
They will lament that God won. They will even acknowledge that God was just. But their rebellion is INCURABLE.
They will fight against God Himself!
With full intentions to tear Him from His throne if possible.

Remember -- they already died once due to sin in the world. What they have now is simply a "life support" system that enabled them to live again for awhile, and see the reality of eternal things.
They weren't resurrected with glorious new bodies like those who had fully accepted Christ's righteousness and surrendered self to Christ in this life.

In hospitals if a person is on life support and it is deemed they are incurable and the life support is removed and they die -- what do you call it?

God will no longer support their life of rebellion.
And yes, scripture presents a REAL fire which will totally burn up everything that has even a trace of sin. And God will create a new heaven and earth in which sin will never again manifest itself.


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