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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180703
06/08/16 03:11 AM
06/08/16 03:11 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
According to this related side discussion about whether or not God kills, not everybody will be saved, but will instead ultimately be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
What else is destroyed in the lake of fire? Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Care to explain how that happens?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: kland] #180704
06/08/16 12:18 PM
06/08/16 12:18 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: kland

For instance, regarding Saul the Bible says:

1Ch 10:14 But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Clear enough for a child?
Or not?


1) As far as 1 Chron 10:14, Saul fell on his sword and died in verse 4. Saul should have confessed his sin to God and repented, but, he did not do that. Once fear got a hold of Saul's heart he killed himself.

Now, if we consider the Lake of Fire, we see that God destroys all the wicked. I find this very clear and simple.
So why did the Bible say God killed Saul if Saul killed himself? Does one you not find clear from the Bible, yet another you do?
If the Bible says God killed Saul, and yet you don't believe that,
Why when the Bible says Lake of Fire, you do believe God does that?
Do you see a pick and choosing going on?

Quote:
2) No, God does not raise the wicked just to torture them. God is vindicating His character to all creation, including the lost. Once this is accomplished, there isn't any reason for the lost to live anymore and God destroys them. God does this so that there isn't any torture involved.
Really? That's just awful! Sounds like an arrogant dictator.

(bold emphasis mine)

I understand the persistant splitting of hairs, but, it is your point that is not clear. Saul destroyed himself in the flesh, but, God will destroy Saul in body and soul in the lake of fire.

God isn't in any sense an arrogant dictator. He is clearing the conscience of every created being in God's creation. Everyone will know what and why they are in the situation they are in and every knee will bow to Christ. Rightfully so.

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: APL] #180707
06/09/16 01:50 AM
06/09/16 01:50 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Daryl
According to this related side discussion about whether or not God kills, not everybody will be saved, but will instead ultimately be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
What else is destroyed in the lake of fire? Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Care to explain how that happens?

Death and hell are here personified. Their being cast into the Lake of Fire represents an end of death and of the abode of the dead. Never will they have part in the New Earth; they are mortal phenomena that belong only to this world. Death is the final enemy to be destroyed. (1 Cor. 15:26, 53-55)


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180708
06/09/16 02:01 AM
06/09/16 02:01 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Daryl
According to this related side discussion about whether or not God kills, not everybody will be saved, but will instead ultimately be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
What else is destroyed in the lake of fire? Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Care to explain how that happens?

Death and hell are here personified. Their being cast into the Lake of Fire represents an end of death and of the abode of the dead. Never will they have part in the New Earth; they are mortal phenomena that belong only to this world. Death is the final enemy to be destroyed. (1 Cor. 15:26, 53-55)


You are quoting the SDABC without giving the reference, but that's fine. Take " fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9 and compare that with this: Job 1:16 KJV While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Whodunnit?

Do note the following quotation of AT Jones:

WE know from the Word of inspiration that power "belongeth unto God;" that indeed, "there is no power but of God." Psalms 62:11; Romans 13:1. {August 25, 1898 ATJ, AMS 518.1}

God upholds all things by "the word of his power." Hebrews 1:3. "He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things," and "in him we live, and move, and have our being." Acts 17:25; Acts 17:28. {August 25, 1898 ATJ, AMS 518.2}

Earthly power is the power of God, perverted by sin. The Creator so respects man's free will, that he gives him power to do that which is contrary to the divine will. {August 25, 1898 ATJ, AMS 518.3}

So again, Whodunnit?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: APL] #180709
06/09/16 08:10 AM
06/09/16 08:10 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Daryl
According to this related side discussion about whether or not God kills, not everybody will be saved, but will instead ultimately be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
What else is destroyed in the lake of fire? Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Care to explain how that happens?

Death and hell are here personified. Their being cast into the Lake of Fire represents an end of death and of the abode of the dead. Never will they have part in the New Earth; they are mortal phenomena that belong only to this world. Death is the final enemy to be destroyed. (1 Cor. 15:26, 53-55)


You are quoting the SDABC without giving the reference, but that's fine. Take " fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9 and compare that with this: Job 1:16 KJV While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Whodunnit?

Do note the following quotation of AT Jones:

WE know from the Word of inspiration that power "belongeth unto God;" that indeed, "there is no power but of God." Psalms 62:11; Romans 13:1. {August 25, 1898 ATJ, AMS 518.1}

God upholds all things by "the word of his power." Hebrews 1:3. "He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things," and "in him we live, and move, and have our being." Acts 17:25; Acts 17:28. {August 25, 1898 ATJ, AMS 518.2}

Earthly power is the power of God, perverted by sin. The Creator so respects man's free will, that he gives him power to do that which is contrary to the divine will. {August 25, 1898 ATJ, AMS 518.3}

So again, Whodunnit?
(bold emphasis mine)

Who do you think did it? The Bible is clear, even clearer than AT Jones.

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180711
06/09/16 01:05 PM
06/09/16 01:05 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: alchemy
Who do you think did it? The Bible is clear, even clearer than AT Jones.
Pay attention to the quotes! Is it God's will that any perish? NO. God gives us freedom to even kill ourselves. "God destroys no man"

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. {COL 84.4}

God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves.
{YI, November 30, 1893 par. 6}

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government.
{DA 22.1}

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
{DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character.
{DA 764.3}

The nature of sin is that it destroys the sinner. The INEVITABLE results of sin is that IT destroys. Why is it so hard to believe the truth about God? Why so much unbelief?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: APL] #180713
06/10/16 03:20 AM
06/10/16 03:20 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: alchemy
Who do you think did it? The Bible is clear, even clearer than AT Jones.
Pay attention to the quotes! Is it God's will that any perish? NO. God gives us freedom to even kill ourselves. "God destroys no man"

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. {COL 84.4}

God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves.
{YI, November 30, 1893 par. 6}

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government.
{DA 22.1}

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
{DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character.
{DA 764.3}

The nature of sin is that it destroys the sinner. The INEVITABLE results of sin is that IT destroys. Why is it so hard to believe the truth about God? Why so much unbelief?


What these quotes are saying is that after the Investigative Judgment is complete, God has been vindicated of any blame or fault for all that came of Satan and sin. All the blame for those destroyed rests on all those destroyed. So, in reality, angels and humans will be the cause of their destruction.

Why is it so hard to understand that God must be the One to end sin and death? The evil angels aren't going to commit suicide of anything like that! God must be and will be the One to destroy the lost and the wicked. And God will be completely vindicated in doing so.

Exo 34:7;

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. (bold emphasis mine)

Isa 28:21;

For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. (bold emphasis mine)

Whose strange work? Whose strange act? God's.

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180715
06/10/16 03:24 AM
06/10/16 03:24 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
alchemy - READ AGAIN the quotes from Desire of Ages. What are the "inevitable" consequences of sin? Execution by God? By no means. The nature of sin is that IT destroys. Quote: "God destroys no man". So why do you say that it has to be God that destroys all sinful men? Repeat: "God destroys no man". And in THIS context, what is God's strange work?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: APL] #180717
06/10/16 04:38 AM
06/10/16 04:38 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: APL
alchemy - READ AGAIN the quotes from Desire of Ages. What are the "inevitable" consequences of sin? Execution by God? By no means. The nature of sin is that IT destroys. Quote: "God destroys no man". So why do you say that it has to be God that destroys all sinful men? Repeat: "God destroys no man". And in THIS context, what is God's strange work?


Understood APL. But remember, Ellen White and the Bible go together. Sin as an entity can not create and execute the Lake of Fire. Sin is the cause behind God creating and executing the Lake of Fire.

Please, read again the quotes from the Bible.

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #180718
06/10/16 03:00 PM
06/10/16 03:00 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: alchemy
Please, read again the quotes from the Bible.
yeah - one has to ask how readest thou? EGW says God is not the executioner. Most say God is the executioner. It can't be both. We can know from reading the Bible as a whole that God is not the executioner. Until we know God as He is, to know His true character, we can never proclaim the last message of mercy to the world. (see COL 415) "Behold your God"


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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