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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181008
07/14/16 12:29 AM
07/14/16 12:29 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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APL wrote;
"Strange that Green does not include all the people that die of heart disease, stroke, diabetes and cancer which by huge percentages can be reduced by following the counsel given by God. of but focuses on just a few cases. Why is that Green? Strange that you imply that Daniel only undertook his diet for 10 days! That was only the trial. After seeing their state, Daniel was allowed to continue. And he was 10 times that of his heathen compatriots. How many people subsist on the diet that those looking for translation should be eating and are thriving! "
Powerful statement APL.
But, it does happen that once in a while some one changes their diet to vegan without really understanding the issues. Consequently, they don't get the results that they should. These days, so many people in the world eat vegan that the information is much more readily available. Alchemy, APL's statement is misleading. The counsel given by God does not lead to veganism, as much as he prefers to see it that way. Read Ellen White for yourself and you will find that God's counsel leads to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. In the final moments, when God tells us to do so, we may have to give up the milk and eggs entirely, but to give them up too soon, Mrs. White says, will lead to premature death. What APL says about all of those other diseases has some truth to it, but it ignores the equal truth that the overall mortality among vegans is equal to that of the meat eaters. These studies have been published and are available online. They prove, once again, how right Mrs. White was. She tells us to prepare people for the time when they may need to cook without milk and eggs, but at the same time she forbids us to teach people to give up the milk and eggs. Repeatedly, she advocates for them, eggs in particular, as long as you can secure them from healthy hens. Veganism leads to imbalanced health that causes a hasty descent to the grave when once a cancer takes hold. Vegans die of cancer where others may not. It is true that vegans have far less diabetes and heart disease. But why do vegans have double the risk of cervical cancer? We don't know all of the reasons, yet. But we know that Ellen White spoke the truth, and we have been told not to give up milk and eggs until God reveals to us that it is time to do so--which may be an individual decision. The question I would, therefore, ask of any vegan is simple: Did God tell you to give up the milk and eggs? Regardless of the answer, I would also tell anyone that, according to Mrs. White, you are not to teach anyone else to give up the milk and eggs. She gives us this message repeatedly. Many vegans today are missionaries for their veganism, like the woman who died on Mt. Everest hoping to prove to the world that vegans can do anything (see news link from earlier post). As Adventists, we are to have no such message. Our message is that of the third angel. Blessings, Green Cochoa. God Will Provide 613. We see that cattle are becoming greatly diseased, the earth itself is corrupted, and we know that the time will come when it will not be best to use milk and eggs. But that time has not yet come. We know that when it does come, the Lord will provide. The question is asked, meaning much to all concerned, Will God set a table in the wilderness? I think the answer may be made, Yea, God will provide food for His people. {CD 359.2}In all parts of the world provision will be made to supply the place of milk and eggs. And the Lord will let us know when the time comes to give up these articles. He desires all to feel that they have a gracious heavenly Father who will instruct them in all things. The Lord will give dietetic art and skill to His people in all parts of the world, teaching them how to use for the sustenance of life the products of the earth.—Letter 151, 1901 {CD 359.3}[Use of Milk in Breadmaking—496] [Use of Milk in Whole-Wheat Rolls—503] I am not a full vegan myself. But, I believe the food of the world is dangerous enough now and I believe the Lord is revealing that to His people. This guy is a vegan btw; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP_LIY8cjf4
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181009
07/14/16 02:05 AM
07/14/16 02:05 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Yes, eating processed foods high in oils increases the omega-6s and increases inflammation. But if we follow the recommendations we have had for over 100 years, we need not go down that path. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven. The less feverish the diet, the more easily can the passions be controlled. Gratification of taste should not be consulted irrespective of physical, intellectual, or moral health. {2T 352.1}
Grains and fruits, as natural as possible, and free from oil is the diet for those preparing for translation.
Green makes another mistake in believing that health reform is not part of the third angel's message.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181027
07/15/16 09:34 PM
07/15/16 09:34 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL,
Do you eat vegetables?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181028
07/15/16 09:42 PM
07/15/16 09:42 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Regardless of the answer, I would also tell anyone that, according to Mrs. White, you are not to teach anyone else to give up the milk and eggs. The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {MH 320.2} Who shall we follow?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181029
07/15/16 10:35 PM
07/15/16 10:35 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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APL, Personally, it does not matter to me if you answer me or not, but for your own soul's sake, you deserve to properly consider how you are choosing to interpret Mrs. White. You could not answer me whether or not you are eating vegetables. Why is that? It was a very simple question. The fact that you are not answering such a simple question as that is indicative of a larger issue: You KNOW that you have twisted Mrs. White by using her out-of-context.I couldn't live with my conscience if I did that. If you want to use that Ellen White statement regarding preparing for translation as excluding milk and eggs, here are other items you should be giving up as well: beans honey mushrooms nuts seaweed vegetables -- (carrots, potatoes, radishes, onions, chives, beets, turnips, spinach, lettuce, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, celery, kale, artichokes, watercress, mint, basil, herbs, licorice, dill, alfalfa sprouts, bean sprouts, sugarcane, okra, asparagus, garlic, shallot, kohlrabi, lemon grass, bamboo, cassava, yam, sweet potato, ginger, jícama, parsnip, turnip, rutabaga, taro, wasabi, turmeric, galangal, etc.) yeast Are you teaching people to cook without all these?Note: Teaching cookery is different than teaching diet. Mrs. White is more than clear on this point. You deserve to take some time apart to consider the full body of her statements on the matter. It appears someone has misled you as to what Mrs. White teaches on this subject. To a doctor who went to less of an extreme than the one which you appear to be advocating, the following was written. We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {TSDF 49.1}
You are in danger of taking too radical a view of health reform, and of prescribing for yourself a diet that will not sustain you. {TSDF 49.2}
I do hope that you will heed the words I have spoken to you. It has been presented to me that you will not be able to exert the most successful influence in health reform unless in some things you become more liberal to yourself and to others. The time will come when milk can not be used as freely as it is now used; but the present time is not the time to discard it. And eggs contain properties which are remedial agencies in counteracting poisons. And while warnings have been given against the use of these articles of diet in families where the children were addicted to, yes, steeped, in habits of self abuse; yet we should not consider it a denial of principle to use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed. {TSDF 49.3}
God calls upon those for whom Christ died to take proper care of themselves, and set a right example to others. My brother, you are not to make a test for the people of God upon the question of diet; for they will lose confidence in teachings that are strained to the farthest point of extension. The Lord desires His people to be sound on every point in health reform, but we must not go to extremes. {TSDF 49.4} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181030
07/16/16 01:26 AM
07/16/16 01:26 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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It would be good for you if you considered ALL that EGW has written. You last post is clear evidence of twisting all that she has written. I know what your question was pointing to, and it based on a single quotation. Even your quotations from TSDF reveal the weakness of your position. Example, most people have no idea the condition of the animals from which they obtain their milk and eggs. EGW is clear that giving up milk and eggs can be done. Her greatest caution is for the poor. Today it is not difficult to forgo milk and eggs and use things which are better and more healthful.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: APL]
#181036
07/16/16 11:11 PM
07/16/16 11:11 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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It would be good for you if you considered ALL that EGW has written. Thank you, I have. Have you? You last post is clear evidence of twisting all that she has written. If you mean to accuse me, have at it. But it appears you may be accusing Mrs. White herself, whom I quoted in that post. I know what your question was pointing to, and it based on a single quotation. That's interesting, because that "single quotation" just happens to be the one you brought here. Even your quotations from TSDF reveal the weakness of your position. First of all, it is not my position that you are attacking, but that of Ellen White. Other quotes support the concept when you read them "all." Example, most people have no idea the condition of the animals from which they obtain their milk and eggs. This is a straw man argument and has little to do with Mrs. White's statement, though she does tell us our milk and eggs should be from healthy animals. That's common sense, though, don't you think? Personally, I hope my fruits and vegetables are from healthy sources too, don't you? (I wouldn't care to have them full of pesticides, for example, would you? Is GMO healthy?) EGW is clear that giving up milk and eggs can be done. Sure. She tells us that the "very small minority" can do so without harm. Her greatest caution is for the poor. That's stretching the truth, or perhaps dependent upon one's definitions of "greatest caution." She speaks of more than just the poor, but she certainly does address them as well. Today it is not difficult to forgo milk and eggs and use things which are better and more healthful. No, it is not difficult in some places to obtain good supplements. As long as the vegan knows that he or she needs to take supplements to replace what they would naturally have obtained in the milk or eggs, then perhaps they can switch from the animal products to the supplements with less risk of ill effects. For vitamin B12, those who take supplements should know, however, that by far the most common source on the market, cyanocobalamin, which is also the cheapest, is virtually unusable by the body. Precious little uptake of B12 occurs with it, and a B12 deficiency can still develop when taking this as one's source. Hydroxocobalamin is a slightly better form, and more expensive, but a better one by far, and most expensive of the three as well, is methylcobalamin. Where I am located, it is unavailable. We have only cyanocobalamin here. Perhaps Mrs. White refers to this country as among those "poor" which she allows greater latitude in terms of dietary health reform. Of course, anyone can still, given a rural setting, obtain eggs from healthy hens, simply by raising a few of their own. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181038
07/16/16 11:38 PM
07/16/16 11:38 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Here is again you twist EGW. Only a small minority can do without milk and eggs? NO, she said that the poor MAY not be able to provide sufficient nutrition without it. Quite the opposite of what you'd like to believe. Example, most people have no idea the condition of the animals from which they obtain their milk and eggs. This is a straw man argument and has little to do with Mrs. White's statement, though she does tell us our milk and eggs should be from healthy animals. That's common sense, though, don't you think?
***GREEN LOGIC*** LOL!! You call it a straw man argument then back me up by what EGW says. Actually, it is "black logic" as it is far from the light. Do you know what your eggs and milk come from healthy animals? Do MOST people know? Nope! Most have NO IDEA. I won't address the rest of YOUR STRAW MAN argument. </shaking head>
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181048
07/17/16 04:40 PM
07/17/16 04:40 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Here is again you twist EGW. Only a small minority can do without milk and eggs? APL, I put that phrase in quotes for a reason. You can, by using that very same quoted string, find where Ellen White confirms what I am saying. So, will you do your homework like a true Berean? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: More vegans in the news . . .
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#181049
07/17/16 09:39 PM
07/17/16 09:39 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Here is again you twist EGW. Only a small minority can do without milk and eggs? APL, I put that phrase in quotes for a reason. You can, by using that very same quoted string, find where Ellen White confirms what I am saying. So, will you do your homework like a true Berean? Blessings, Green Cochoa. Again, your proof-text fails you. Your "quote" comes from the Kress collection. Have your does your homework and read the whole article? WHO is EGW most concerned with in the topic of milk and eggs? Note also when this was written, but of course you know the year, right? Is the worry for the poor the same today as it was then? Do we now have access to foods which replace the need for the less healthful. You bet! The load of sickness and disease is increasing. We have the knowledge and tools to now combat this rising plague of heart disease, cancer, auto-immune disease, etc. The time has come to give up that which is not for our best and use the now bountiful blessings of produce our Father has supplied.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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