In the day of final judgment, every lost soul will understand the nature of his own rejection of truth. The cross will be presented, and its real bearing will be seen by every mind that has been blinded by transgression. Before the vision of Calvary with its mysterious Victim, sinners will stand condemned. Every lying excuse will be swept away. Human apostasy will appear in its heinous character. Men will see what their choice has been. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy will then have been made plain. In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. When the thoughts of all hearts shall be revealed, both the loyal and the rebellious will unite in declaring, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? . . . for Thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:3, 4. {DA 58.1}

At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death. {GC 662.1}

Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion. They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him. {GC 662.2}

How does this address the question I asked? I asked about on trial and God killing. And nowhere did I say anything about God using anyone else as a hired murderer.

Not so. In what way in comparison do you think I am saying God kills others?
Comparing what you're saying here with Saul - Would you be saying that Saul had no choice in killing himself? That seems to be what Alchemy said once: God kills those who kill themselves. What about those fighting Saul - did they have no choice of shooting Saul? Did God cause Saul to go out and fight them with no choice of Saul?
I don't think you are making a proper comparison.


Is this a fair comparison to David?
Is this a fair accusation to God?
Have you been listening?

You seem to have changed the whole thing and substituted something else.

Do you understand that would not be fair to judge APL and myself on such change you've made? If you disagreed with what our premise was, why did you not object to that instead of what you changed it to?

What I hear you saying is the only thing on trial is the arbitrariness of who God chose to save. But that's another topic. I had thought we were talking about whether God kills people. Are we not even on the same topic?

I would even go further than that.
To me, the passage is saying that the atonement of Christ is NOT AT ALL a skilful way to have our sins pardoned like some magic act.

Just my impression from it.

??? I've never said it was a "FORCING" nor made any allusion that this is God's justice. Yet there is an element of "force" when we are found guilty of a crime and brought to court and sentenced by God. That's what Paul defines as being "under the law" for our sin has brought a judgment prescribed by the law which the Bible terms it as a Debt or restitution to be paid. By sinning you lost your freedom and become accountable under the law. However a redeemer will come then you will be "under grace" as it will become his responsibility to get your debt paid with the help of your redeemer.


There's no twisting of arms. The Great White throne judgment is the revealing of all truth and seeing the Lord's rightful judgment full of mercy that prepares their spirit to hear the Holy Spirit in God's appointed time for them to hear Him that brings them into a genuine repentance.

And I never said Millions of years either. You are constantly mis-representing and twisting my words. Plus I have found you so many times twisting and mis-representing God's word to fit your interpretation as you have done with Isaiah 45:23. You need to be more mindful and careful with that. It is very disrespectful and deceitful and presumptuous.

Antitype Time Lenght of the Jubilee LAW : 49years = 49,000 years

Here is What I said :
-according to the Jubilee type based on 49 years pattern of 7 x 7weeks, and
-knowing that this coming Biblical identified Millennium is the 7th, and
-knowing that Great Judgment comes AFTER the Millenium which is the beginning of a new weekly based cycle which is the 8th day-year-Millenium
-and other Biblical indications ...;

==thus to my understanding that one year of the Jubilee cycle points to 1000 years in the fulfilling world application ...
==thus the 49th Jubilee year should be equivalent to 49,000 years...
==thus after the Great White throne Judgment there should be 42,000 years (49k-7k=42k) left before the antitype day of the great Jubilee.
==Thus according to the Jubilee law, the debt can be paid off BEFORE the end of the Great Jubilee or if the debt is so great and is still not paid by then; the law set a limit on the time to pay which ends at the end of the Jubilee. When that date limit is reached, all debt are canceled, all slaves are freed and restore back to their inheritance which the type was a piece of realistate but the antitype is the restoration of our body which was made from the earth(land).


To me it sounds more like that the Lord is keeping His promise made in His New covenant that He will write His laws in our inwards parts and in our minds. The "our" is not only me and you or "some" others but the whole world. Jesus is the savior of the whole world -- not just some individuals. We need a SAVIOR. Writing the Lord's laws in our inwards parts and mind is something no man can do -- only God, our SAVIOR, can do this.

And no where in the Bible does it say that Jesus is limited to do this in our lifetime. He can take 49,000 years if He has determined it as it appears that He did in His law of Jubilee.


The Old Covenant will save NO ONE versus the New Covenant will save ALL

The New covenant is 100% dependant on Him to keep His promise-vow and write His laws inwards of all of us. He chose to do it in 3 groups or "order"[tagna, squadron](1Cor 15:23), the first is the barley company that represents the Overcomers that will be "harvested" at the first resurrection. The second is the wheat company that represents the remaining of the believers. They will be changed (or harvested) sometime after the Great White throne judgment and won't be cast in the "lake of fire". The third harvest is the grapes company that will have their inheritance(recieve the immortal body) at the end of the Great Jubilee.

dedication your views are still deeply rooted in the old covenant where it depends on MAN to keep his promise-vow to keep all of the Lords laws. It seems you have still not understood that it is impossible for MAN (the natural, aka the earthly man and old man) to keep his promise-vow and that's why the Lord gave the New Covenant. The new covenant is based on the Lord's promise nor Man's. The new covenant agreement is pure love.

Under the old covenant, NO ONE will be saved. Not even you, for no man succeeded to keep their promise to keep the law. If it wasn't for the Lord making the new covenant, ALL MAN would perish. Letting all MAN perish (or 95% of population as it is in most Christian's view) --- is NOT LOVE. It is also far from being a proof that love concquer all. It's no victory for the Lord to loose all of those souls.


I think the vision of Rev 21 is pointing to AFTER the Great Jubilee is over when everyone is restored. However during the 42,000 years remaining after the great white throne judgment and before the Great Jubilee, from Isaiah 2 it tells us that there will be no more wars. I would add that there will be no more famines, injustice, poverty because the world will be ruled by the Saints of the Most High & Christ. The world will be much a different place than before during the first 6th Millenniums where the earth were ruled by carnal Men and Beasts Empires.


Their you go again! misrepresenting what I've said. Remember, Is 45:23 "all knees will bow & all tongues swear allegiance" that takes place after all truth is reveal at the Great White throne judgment?

Sin is a Debt to be paid(restitution) according to the Law and the Jubilee law
These people will be sentenced to a restitution that needs to be paid...and the law says "[for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."Ex 22:3

According to the Jubilee Law, these individuals will be sold to a Redeemer [one of the Saints of the Most High who are an extension of Jesus, the Head of the Body] according to the Jubilee law. There's no prison in the Lord's system, however there is slavery if you has a debt to be paid. You are put under the responsibility of one of the Saints of the Most High who will "shepherd" you and help you along your way to your own cross where more and more of the old man get's nailed with Christ until you become a total living sacrifice acceptable to the Lord.



Nope...it is a Biblical concept of the work of the Holy Spirit that slowly burns the shaft or dross[=the flesh aka your carnality] and saves the grain or precious metals in the Lord's storehouse.


If I understand you correctly in the bolded section -- your concept and extend of salvation is dependable on you choosing Jesus? If so, to me that contradicts too many Bible texts to accept this teaching.

Is Salvation dependable on the Will of Man? or is it dependable on whom the Lord showing mercy to?

-One main text is Rom 3:11 that says "there is none that seeketh after God." To me this text says NONE. Not some like dedication and others, but absolutely NONE seeketh after God. So how can anyone choose God if no one seeks Him from the first place?

-Another main text is John 1:12 says ""which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." Notice what is underline which is very specific that it is NOT the will of man that someone is "born" of God and get on the path of life from that point. Here's many other text saying the share the same concept in other words : John 3:5;1Pet 1:23; 1Jn 2:29; 3:9; 5:4.

-Then many scriptures says that it is God's "own will begat us with the word of truth" (James 1:18). This is more explicit saying that it is the Lord's own will to begat someone. Rom 9:10-16 says the same but this time saying that some are left out(not born of the Spirit) like it was with the case with Esau. Notice what it says in verse 16. AV Ro 9:11 "For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God [u]according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;...16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.) Rom 9 is very explicit in saying theirs different roles given to people in their lifetime. These roles(to remain vessels of destruction or becoming vessels of glory) are not chosen
by the individuals --"not of him that willeth" but it is 100% dependable "of God that sheweth mercy"


Burning Children in a Literal Fire is Forbidden

To burn children with a LITERAL FIRE is forbidden in God's law no matter what religious reason you give it. The plain act itself is forbidden. Lev 18:21 "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech".

Then in AV Jer 32:35 the Lord repeats that it is forbidden and an abomination and that it didn't pass through His mind ??? And somehow you believe that the Lord, who forbade his own children to do this, will turn around and to this Himself to 95% of the world population? WOW! Do you think its ok for the Lord to break His own laws?


Oh???? So those that are saved are people who wants to be with Jesus and love him?

Is Salvation dependable if Man have special interest or desire or special build in DNA???

So they are different from all the others? Because of DNA? or Because they chosen this path? Please explain why do you think they are so different and because of it they were saved? There's too many texts that say that salvation doesn't depend on the will of man as quoted above or their blood or the "will of the flesh" (might mean the will power). Then what you say contradicts Rom 3:11 that says no one seeks Him? And Rom 8:7 that says that "the carnal(=natural) mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." So how did they seeked the Lord if their basic constitution doesn't? And how did their carnal mind change since it was in enmity against God or was their mind different from all the others and this text doesn't apply to them?

It is true that there are some texts that says things like "I delight in the law of God" Rom 7:22; but you need to understand these in context to why other texts says the opposite. Then to understand all of these with the mind of Christ.

There's TWO Man in ME who are opposite : the "OLD MAN" and the "NEW Creation Man"

The scripture says the old man (aka the natural man, the carnal man, the fleshy man) is in enmity against God law, do not seek God, nor understand Him. It is totally impossible for that man to be saved. That man is sentenced to death and needs to die. However, there is a NEW MAN (aka the new creation, the spiritual man,...) that is born when the Lord speaks to his spirit. That's a totally new man that starts as a seed conceived in us and grows until it is birthed. This individual is referred to as "the manchild" that Jesus was a type of. This is not the same man as the old fleshy man. It is a new creature that his father is the Lord and not Adam. That man is said in 1Jn 3:9 that it "cannot sin because he is born of God". The new man's father is the Lord and has an earthly mother like Jesus who was conceived by the Father via the Holy Spirit inside the womb of an earthly woman. Whereas the father(down to Adam) and mother of the "old man" are both earthly.

Grasping this understanding that there's two man in the believer is the problem with most Christian ability to reconciliate contradictory scriptures. The new spiritual man grows as he hears the voice(rhema, utterance) of God. (Rom 10:17) But the old man will never grow spiritually and will die the first death which is the physical mortality.


I think you're view has major lacks; but I do believe you will come to all truth. We all will according to scripture who equates it that we all will be saved.

Here's another of my favorite texts that says ALL will be saved and not some.

AV 1Ti 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Elle,

It appears you believe in a God of force who will force everyone to eventually agree with Him. More than this, I suppose everyone must also love Him. You believe He will continue to force these points with everyone until 49,000 years (or more as necessary, I suppose?) have passed.

If I hold a gun to your head and tell you that you must love me and marry me or else...would you love me? Would you marry me? You might marry me, you might say you loved me, but would your heart really be in it? Would you not really be simply giving in to my demands out of fear?

Do you believe in this kind of God? Do you feel it would be better to be forced to live and love Him against your will than to be given the death penalty?

People often choose to die rather than to do certain things in life--should this choice be removed from everyone forever? No one has a choice but to serve the master like slaves? Do you think everyone, Satan included, would actually love a forceful God like this?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Nope...I don't and that's not what is expressed in Isaiah 45:22-25 either when all these people will repent. Pay attention to the words underlined below :

AV Isa 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall [one] say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."

I don't see these people forced into repentance in Is 45:24. There repentance experience will be of the same nature as your repentance experienced when the Holy Spirit convicted you of sin.

If you view your conversion experience as forced; then as I replied to dedication there are some element of truth to that. I wouldn't call it force though but more so "drag" or more precisely the meaning of the Greek word helkuo G1670. The proper definition of helkuo is "to drag". I see this definition popping up from these texts below. But many(not all) translators has used the English word "draw" instead of "drag" including the KJV. I think "drag" is a better word to expressed the below :

1. To helkuo=drag the net to catch some fishes:

AV Jn 21:6 "And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw[helkuo] it for the multitude of fishes.... 11 Simon Peter went up, and drew[helkuo] the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken."


To helkuo=drag Paul out of the Temple :

AV Ac 21:30 "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew[helkuo] him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

To helkuo=drag the poor into court :

AV Ja 2:6 But "ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw[helkuo] you before the judgment seats?"


The Father helkuo=drags people to Jesus :

AV Jn 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw[helkuo] him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The Cross helkuo=drags all men to Christ :

AV Jn 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw[helkuo,to drag] all [men] unto me."

The reason why Jesus used the word helkuo -- "to drag" -- to expressed those two TRUTHS above is because He knows that Man is naturally in enmity against God and will resist Him all the way to the promised land. It is a gentle "dragging" a little step at a time... the same we do with our children as we train them during their training. Re-read what I said to dedication.... as far as what I see in scripture that there's two man in us : the first is the "old man" that will be in enmity against God until the end. The other is the "new creation man" who will always agree with the Lord for he never sins and Loves Him already. These two men co-exist in us until the "new creation man" becomes fully mature and is birthed.


It won't be forced. It will be the same way as it was with you...first He loved us first when we were still enemy by saving us. Then He brings to us much goodness, including all the blessings in disguised, to lead us to repentance. And I'm sure you didn't experience only one occurrence of repentance in your life but many. It will be the same with them. No difference really. The path to get there is different but yet it is the same.


No there's no more than the limit instituted in the Jubilee law. There is a LIMIT of time for a man to be a SLAVE having to pay for his debt that his sins incurred. And the judgment occurs only ONCE at the Great White Throne after the 7th Millennium. What comes after (42,000 years left, right?) is the carrying out of the debt sentence where you need to work to pay it off under the care of a redeemer. You will learn the law thru the personal ministering care and teachings of your redeemer who will be an extension of Jesus Himself and will work beside you and with you.


There's no figurative gun for there's no threat of death. Remember death has been cast in the "lake of fire" before the people were cast in the "lake of fire". So your analogy doesn't relate or apply.

No one is demanded to love Jesus right away. However re-read Isaiah 45:24 quoted above, to me that texts is saying these people will be praising God and will be greateful for the chance to make their crimes=sin right.


#1. Nobody is forced to love Him.
#2. Reread what Isaiah 45:24 and what Pauls says about these people in the 3 texts he quotes it. You are supposing there's no repentance, when these texts shows that there will be a repentance right after the Great White Throne. The Lord knows the End from the beginning....thus Is 45 and what Paul said will happen. Get in tune with what scripture says.
#3. All of you who believe in 95% of the population will be CAST against their FREEWILL into a LITERAL LAKE OF FIRE. Thus you believe in a God that FORCES also as all these people is dying against their FREEWILL. But you guys thinks that is ok because they deserve it. Right? However it's still FORCE. So in your view -- they are Forced at the end to die also. And then you accuse my view to be forcefull????? (while I disagree that it is for the Bible explains a genuine repentance with happiness Before they are cast in a FIGURATIVE Lake of fire and will receive Life at the end.) Aren't you a little hypocritical?

So your view is forceful for every one gets burn in a LITERAL Fire and dies right away(or slowly according to some views) against their freewill.

Comparing to my view (by which is Biblically said that is NOT forceful) where everyone gets burn(their carnality not their actual flesh) in a FIGURATIVE Fire and Lives. ?????

Your logic is kinda faulty if I may be so bold to say so.


Your supposition is based in the believe you own yourself; however we both know that the Lord created us THUS He owns us. If it is in His plan for you to kill yourself in this lifetime, you will; but all others won't for no man can resist the Lords plan(Rom 9).

Now your supposition that people should have the RIGHT to commit suicide in the next life after the Great White Throne is totally unfounded by law nor is there such rights given to man in scripture. Committing suicide is like destroying a piece of property that doesn't belong to you. No one was given the RIGHT to destroy someone else's property. If they do, well they have to pay restitution for it up to 4 or 5 times the value of it according to the Lord's judgment expressed in Ex 21.

Here's the basic LAND LAW :

AV Lv 25:23 . "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land [is] mine; for ye [are] strangers and sojourners with me."

The Lord owns all the Land because He created the whole earth. Then He took the dust of the land that He just created and created MAN with it. Therefore because man is made from the dust of the land, he's under the Land laws. What applies to the Land laws applies to a Man's body also. We do see this parallele application in His laws.

The Lord "gave" a piece of land to every man; however the Lord also forbade anyone to SELL the land forever. A man could sell the estimate yearly production of "his" land until the year of Jubilee; but he was not allow to sell the land itself forever. That land return to his possession at the Jubilee year.

This same law applies to man's body. If Man finds himself in debts, he can sell his yearly works(==production of "his" land) until he pays it or until the year of Jubilee, whichever comes first. But when the Jubilee came, all of remaining MAN's debt(if any) was cancelled and he was free to return to "his" land that the Lord "gave" him.

The land(or body) that the Lord "gave" to Man was a RIGHT, but this RIGHT is under God's condition instituted in His laws. God can institute the condition because He owns the land from the beginning right? Thus one condition is not having the right to sell the land given to him forever. This applies to man body also. Man is forbidden to sell His body forever. In another word, man cannot sell himself to the devil forever. If Man did such unlawful agreement with the devil; well the contract is totally invalid in God's eye for Man doesn't own himself from the first place.

So if man could, he does not have the right to destroy his body forever either. It is an unfounded supposition nor such right is given to man for he doesn't own himself at the first place.


I'm unsure I understand your question correctly. But here's an answer. If you are guilty of committing a crime(==sin), you loose all your RIGHTS and freedom according to the Law (His conditions) the Lord established when He "gave" you a body and a piece of land in His Kingdom. Sin is equated to a debt to be paid in scripture. Once your debt is paid, you are no longer under the judgment of the law and can resume in enjoying your God given RIGHTS and freedom again.


Let's exclude Satan in this picture to keep this simple.

Yes I would see everyone coming to love the Lord as they will come to see that :

#1. He had planned from the beginning of Creation to restore them by given them a way to pay for their incurred debt by sin with the help of a redeemer, and

#2. made full provision to restore them during the process,

#3. plus bringing true justice to their victims in instituting restitution for the crimes committed,

#4. plus restoring the relationship with their victims,

#5. and seeing that the Lord never had in mind to destroy them in a LITERAL FIRE in the first place as all those poor deluded and deceived Christian's has been preaching since after 500 AD.


And you Green according to your LITERAL HELL FIRE view, do you believe that those who witness seeing 95% of the world population that ever lived being LITERALLY BURNED in the lake of fire can love a God like that forever?

I see your view more unlikely for someone to Love God than with my view. Don't you?

Most excellent post!

But how does he think those that reject God die? By "given the death penalty", which means what? Execution? hm...

God, in His infinite wisdom and justice will determine the lost to be deserving of death and execute them in the "Lake of Fire".