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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: The Wanderer]
#183140
04/06/17 04:16 PM
04/06/17 04:16 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Western, USA
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So all this evidence is really meaningless? Interesting! That kind of "evidence" is not empirically established for every country on earth, and if understood in its context, writings of Ellen White would advise people to use their best judgment for whatever geographical area we are living in. For eg, here in Canada, Robin Hood Flour has just been recalled country-wide due to Listeria concerns. It is not always safe to even be vegetarian in certain situations. I think that for now, eggs are ok in moderation, and not eaten every day for most areas. There might be exceptions. The evidence presented by Dr. Gregor from the world literature is compelling. And again: The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {MH 320.2} I think when she says "people everywhere", she means people everywhere, and "so far as possible" means so far as possible, and this is good advice.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: APL]
#183147
04/07/17 08:25 AM
04/07/17 08:25 AM
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SDA Active Member 2022
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Central Alberta
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The evidence presented by Dr. Gregor from the world literature is compelling.
And again: The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {MH 320.2} I think when she says "people everywhere", she means people everywhere, and "so far as possible" means so far as possible, and this is good advice. One sentence from Ministry Of Healing does not establish sound doctrine or practice. There is some context to consider: As I preach the gospel to the poor, I am instructed to tell them to eat that food which is most nourishing. I cannot say to them: "You must not eat eggs, or milk, or cream. You must use no butter in the preparation of food." The gospel must be preached to the poor, but the time has not yet come to prescribe the strictest diet. {CCh 238.2}
The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you. {CD 206.1}
Letter 37, 1901 592. The poor say, when health reform is presented to them, "What shall we eat? We cannot afford to buy the nut foods." As I preach the gospel to the poor, I am instructed to tell them to eat that food which is most nourishing. I cannot say to them, "You must not eat eggs or milk or cream. You must use no butter in the preparation of food." The gospel must be preached to the poor, and the time has not yet come to prescribe the strictest diet. . . . {CD 353.2} God Will Guide
But I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter, and eggs, God will reveal this. No extremes in health reform are to be advocated. The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem. At present we have no burden on this line. Let your moderation be known unto all men. {CD 353.3}
Should health reform in its most extreme form be taught to those whose circumstances forbid its adoption, more harm than good would be done. As I preach the gospel to the poor, I am instructed to tell them to eat that food which is most nourishing. I cannot say to them: "You must not eat eggs, or milk or cream. You must use no butter in the preparation of food." The gospel must be preached to the poor, but the time has not yet come to prescribe the strictest diet. {CD 463.2} A Wrong Method of Working
(1890) C.T.B.H. 119, 120 798. Do not catch hold of isolated ideas and make them a test, criticizing others whose practice may not agree with your opinion; but study the subject broadly and deeply, and seek to bring your own ideas and practices into perfect harmony with the principles of true Christian temperance. {CD 464.1} There are many who try to correct the lives of others by attacking what they regard as wrong habits. They go to those whom they think in error, and point out their defects, but do not seek to direct the mind to true principles. Such a course often comes far short of securing the desired results. When we make it evident that we are trying to correct others, we too often arouse their combativeness, and do more harm than good. And there is the danger to the reprover also. He who takes it upon himself to correct others, is likely to cultivate a habit of faultfinding, and soon his whole interest will be in picking flaws and finding defects. Do not watch others, to pick at their faults, or expose their errors. Educate them to better habits by the power of your own example. {CD 464.2} I thought it was important to include the last two paragraphs in my series of quotes, because in the book Counsels On Diet, these paragraphs were placed immediately after the portions above talking about eggs; and so it appears that they were being placed in correct relation to the sometimes contentious issue of what to eat or not to eat. I really like those last two paragraphs and have often wished that in the past that I paid better attention to them. Hopefully, others will find them helpful as well.
Last edited by The Wanderer; 04/07/17 08:26 AM.
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183149
04/07/17 10:15 AM
04/07/17 10:15 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
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Joined: Sep 2011
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Asia
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Personally, I believe it's time to stop using dairy products. Unless organically fed and raised.
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: Alchemy]
#183150
04/07/17 12:35 PM
04/07/17 12:35 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Personally, I believe it's time to stop using dairy products. Unless organically fed and raised. It has been that "time" since the days of Ellen White, Alchemy. She was milking her own cows for years. Wanderer has the correct perspective from Mrs. White. Those in this discussion who prescribe a vegan diet for others are ignoring her counsels. Choose for yourself whatsoever diet you please, but she gave no license to anyone to prescribe his or her personal diet to others, nor to set himself or herself up as an example to them. Mrs. White said very plainly: We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {TSDF 49.1} You are in danger of taking too radical a view of health reform, and of prescribing for yourself a diet that will not sustain you. {TSDF 49.2} According to Ellen White: - Milk or cream were part of "the most healthful diet."
- The best biscuit recipes included them.
- Eggs contain properties that counteract certain poisons.
- Eggs may prolong life.
According to the Bible: - Canaan was proclaimed a land of milk and honey--both animal products.
- A God-given requirement of Passover was to eat the sacrificial lamb.
- Jesus ate fish, miraculously reproduced fish for human consumption, and cooked fish.
Letter 37, 1904 629. When a letter came to me from Cooranbong, saying that Doctor ----- was dying, I was that night instructed that he must have a change of diet. A raw egg, taken two or three times a day, would give the nourishment that he greatly needed. {CD 367.4} Would the vegans here say that God would make an exception for a single individual, and that He would at the same time tell all others they should NOT follow the advice Ellen White gave above? If that is the case, what about the following advice which she also gave someone? Letter 72, 1896 758. Make fruit the article of diet to be placed on your table, which shall constitute the bill of fare. The juices of fruit, mingled with bread, will be highly enjoyed. Good, ripe, undecayed fruit is a thing we should thank the Lord for, because it is beneficial to health. Interestingly, the egg prescription came after the fruitarian one. And it does not come alone. She prescribed the same "medicine" to a child. I dreamed of having the care of a child that was weak, and seemed unable to rally. I thought the same physician stood by the cradle, and said, 'Have you any wine in the house? Beat up a raw egg, and give it to the child with grape wine [i.e., the unfermented juice of the grape], three times each day. He will rally.'--Letter 112a, 1897. {3MR 321.3} The discerning, open-minded reader who seeks the truth without the bias of personal opinions or preferences, will see in the following passage much to contemplate. Do not put yourself through as you have done, and do not go to extremes in regard to the health reform. Some of our people are very careless in regard to health reform. But because some are far behind, you must not, in order to be an example to them, be an extremist. You must not deprive yourself of that class of food which makes good blood. Your devotion to true principles is leading you to submit yourself to a diet which is giving you an experience that will not recommend health reform. This is your danger. {MM 286.2} When you see that you are becoming weak physically, it is essential for you to make changes, and at once. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. {MM 286.3} There is one thing that has saved life--an infusion of blood from one person to another; but this would be difficult and perhaps impossible for you to do. I merely suggest it. {MM 286.4} The prayer of faith shall save the sick, and I beseech you to call for the elders of the church without delay. May the Lord help you, is my most sincere prayer. {MM 287.1} Clearly, Mrs. White references the "eggs" as being the article of diet of which the message recipient had deprived himself, and she tells him he is an "extremist" for taking such a step. When, as The Wanderer already pointed out, Mrs. White says repeatedly we cannot prescribe a milkless, eggless (vegan) diet but that the issue will resolve itself in due time, it is a sin to ignore her counsel and to teach others contrary to the message we have been given. Mrs. White herself ate plenty of eggs. To her dying day. June 24, 1915 LATEST WORD FROM "ELMSHAVEN"
DURING THE LAST FEW WEEKS, I HAVE NOT WRITTEN TO YOU ABOUT MOTHER, BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT MUCH CHANGE FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE. SHE SEEMS TO BE SLOWLY FAILING IN STRENGTH, AND PEACEFULLY NEARING THE END OF HER LIFE. SHE SAYS FROM TIME TO TIME THAT SHE HAS NO DESIRE TO LIVE EXCEPT FOR SERVICE, AND SHE FEELS THAT HER LIFE WORK IS DONE. {PUR, June 24, 1915 par. 1} THURSDAY, JUNE 3, SHE COULD NOT EAT; AND SINCE THEN SHE HAS BEEN ABLE TO EAT, EACH DAY, ONLY THREE RAW EGGS AND FOUR OR FIVE TEASPOONFULS OF OTHER FOOD. {PUR, June 24, 1915 par. 2}
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183151
04/07/17 12:42 PM
04/07/17 12:42 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Mrs. White made it clear that the "liberal" diet (a diet inclusive of eggs) was best, not only for Dr. Kress, but for all of the patients in the sanitarium. When a letter came to me from Cooranbong, saying that Dr. Kress was dying, I was that night instructed that he must have a change of diet. A raw egg, taken two or three times a day, would give the nourishment that he greatly needed. {21MR 103.5}
I feared that Dr. Kress would not live till my prescription reached him, but the Lord graciously spared his life. {21MR 103.6}
Last night I was in my sleep talking with Dr. Kress. I said to him, You must still exercise care in regard to extremes in diet. You must not go to extremes either in your own case or in regard to the food provided for the helpers and the patients at the sanitarium. The patients pay a good price for their board, and they should have liberal fare. Some may come to the sanitarium in a condition demanding stern denial of appetite and the simplest fare, but as their health improves, they should be liberally supplied with nourishing food. {21MR 103.7}
You may be surprised at my writing this, but last night I was instructed that a change in the diet would make a great difference in your patronage. A more liberal diet is needed. {21MR 104.1}
Will you not give heed to this instruction? It will be good for you as well as for the patients. {21MR 104.2}
I will not write more on this subject now. I have a deep interest in the family at the Wahroonga Sanitarium. I have their special good in view, and this is why I have written as I have. I woke at half past eleven, and rose at half past one to write this letter.-- Letter 37, 1904. To Mrs. White there were two classes of diet: -- The "liberal" diet was the lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet. -- The "extreme" diet was that in which all milk and eggs were discarded.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: APL]
#183152
04/07/17 02:42 PM
04/07/17 02:42 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Green, how much B12 do you get from eggs? None if you don't eat them. How much B12 do you get from tofu? This is sort of off topic on this, but I really think cholesterol levels have much more to do with genetics than diet. I ate meat for many years. A lot of it. I also eat eggs. I'm diabetic and unable to exercise, and my cholesterol level is 135 with high levels of good cholesterol. My wife has never eaten meat, eats very few eggs, uses very few dairy products, and has a cholesterol level of 227 and walks for exercise pretty regularly. Doctors are always wanting to prescribe some type of medicine for her to lower her cholesterol levels.
Now, if diet was the sole cause of cholesterol levels hers should be low and mine should be high. Just the opposite is true. Eggs improve the cholesterol ratios of the body. Scientists are finally learning this, and publishing about it. They have discovered that fears over cholesterol in eggs were entirely unfounded. Eggs Michael Greger M.D. · Last Updated on March 10, 2017 Despite the powerful egg industry’s best efforts to put a “healthy” spin on egg consumption, eggs contain high levels of cholesterol and may contain carcinogenic retroviruses, heterocyclic amines, toxic pollutants (such as arsenic, perfluorochemicals like PCB, phthalates, flame retardant chemicals, dioxins), and Salmonella (see here and here). Consuming just one egg per day may significantly shorten our lifespans, increase the levels of the cancer-promoting growth hormone IGF-1, and increase our risk of heart disease, kidney stones, stroke, type 2 diabetes, gestational diabetes, and some types of cancer (such as pancreatic, breast, and prostate). Eating a plant-based diet may improve mood, lead to weight loss, lower the risk of cataracts, neurological diseases, food poisoning, heart disease, diabetes, asthma, help reverse rheumatoid arthritis, and may increase lifespan. This may be due in part to the arachidonic acid, cholesterol, sulfuric acid, choline, methionine, and sex hormones in eggs and the relative lack of antioxidant phytonutrients. There's a lot of "may" in there, and not a single reference to a peer-reviewed study in support of its pseudo-facts. The fact is that lacto-ovo vegetarians have a lesser mortality than vegans, per the 1999 Meta-Analysis study done on the aggregated data from five separate studies, including Adventist Health Study 1. Vegans had the same mortality rate as meat eaters in that study. Those with the lowest mortality rate were the pescatarians (those who eat fish, milk, and eggs with the remainder of their diet entirely from plants). It is true that vegans have far less diabetes than those of other dietaries. No one has explained to me yet, though, why vegans have more than double the rate of cervical cancer when compared with meat eaters (National Institute of Health, 2011). From VeganHealth.org, the following quote supplies fresh research proving the veracity of earlier studies on the same point relative to cancer among vegans: EPIC-Oxford: Cancer Mortality (2015)
In the 2015 paper from EPIC-Oxford (19), there was no difference in all cancer mortality between vegetarians (including vegans) and regular meat-eaters (0.93, 0.82-1.05). Vegetarians had lower rates of death from pancreatic (0.48, 0.28-0.82) and lymphatic (0.50, 0.32-0.79), but not colorectal, lung, breast, or ovary cancers.
After excluding participants who changed diet categories during the study, vegetarians had a lower risk of all cancer (0.82, 0.72-0.94), and similar findings as above for the other cancers.
Vegans suffered from 67 deaths from cancer, with a rate not significantly different from regular meat-eaters (1.14, 0.88-1.47). So, while "vegetarians had a lower risk of all cancer," the vegans had an equal risk with meat-eaters. It all proves Mrs. White's words once again. She said giving up milk and eggs prematurely would result in death.It comes down to this: When the risks in eating milk and eggs exceed the risks of not eating them, that is the time when it would be most favorable to give them up--as God leads. We are told that God will indicate to us when it's time. I trust those words. I will not haphazardly run ahead of God, but wait for the right timing. In my situation, eggs are an important aspect of nutrition. I praise God for His providence in teaching me and providing for my needs.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183154
04/07/17 04:53 PM
04/07/17 04:53 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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There's a lot of "may" in there, and not a single reference to a peer-reviewed study in support of its pseudo-facts. Is that a statement of ignorance or a flat out lie??? I guess you do not understand how NutritionFacts.org works, or else, you just are attempting to mask truth? Every video is based on peer review data. Every one! And every one has a list of peer review journal articles there were quoted in the videos. I hope your belief about NutritionFacts.org is not as it says in 2 Peter, a "willingly ignorant," a choosing to ignore the facts.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183155
04/07/17 05:24 PM
04/07/17 05:24 PM
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SDA Active Member 2022
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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It comes down to this: When the risks in eating milk and eggs exceed the risks of not eating them, that is the time when it would be most favorable to give them up--as God leads. We are told that God will indicate to us when it's time. I trust those words. I will not haphazardly run ahead of God, but wait for the right timing.
In my situation, eggs are an important aspect of nutrition. I praise God for His providence in teaching me and providing for my needs.
That is a good way to view the subject. "Theologically" or "health-wise" it does not seem that it is a good idea for us to be telling the whole world: "Mrs White says not to eat eggs." It simply is not outlined that way, and medical facts do not yet substantiate such an idea. I can think of a few areas in the world where I would never in a million years eat an egg, but here, I have approximately 2 eggs per week. I am 62 and my cholesterol is fine. I just had it tested a month ago. I praise God for the principle of moderation in "health reform"
Last edited by The Wanderer; 04/07/17 05:25 PM.
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: APL]
#183159
04/07/17 09:25 PM
04/07/17 09:25 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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There's a lot of "may" in there, and not a single reference to a peer-reviewed study in support of its pseudo-facts. Is that a statement of ignorance or a flat out lie??? I guess you do not understand how NutritionFacts.org works, or else, you just are attempting to mask truth? Every video is based on peer review data. Every one! And every one has a list of peer review journal articles there were quoted in the videos. I hope your belief about NutritionFacts.org is not as it says in 2 Peter, a "willingly ignorant," a choosing to ignore the facts. I'm not ignoring the facts. There are many facts that contradict the ones Dr. Greger chose to purvey. His facts are not presented in a balanced manner at all. For example, if he wants to talk about "arsenic" being a problem, then he had far rather give up rice than eggs. The rice plant naturally takes up arsenic and concentrates it, to the point that many in America have become aware of it as published in mainstream news. As a vegetarian, I must limit my rice consumption. I do not eat rice every day like most people where I live. If, on the other hand, I ate meat on a regular basis, the arsenic would be virtually a non-issue, because the high sulfur content of the meat would help to flush the excess arsenic. And here's where it gets more interesting still: eggs are likewise high in sulfur, and help to flush arsenic (a poison) out of the body. While Mrs. White did not name arsenic as one of the poisons that eggs help with, and while she did not say sulfur was the agent to help rid the poisons, her statement is nonetheless clear that eggs do help remove poisons. Therefore, Dr. Greger, whomever he is, cannot hope to build a solid case when so much of it contradicts what Mrs. White has given us through inspiration. Multiple "facts" Dr. Greger put forward are brought into question by Ellen White and by other scientists and studies done today. His fears about the cholesterol in eggs have already been proven false. Eggs actually help us in that department, and moderate usage of eggs does not contribute to heart disease. Those who consume eggs live longer than the vegans who do not, statistically. Ellen White informed us that giving up milk and eggs prematurely would result in death. She was right, of course.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Healthy, Healthful Eggs for Health!
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183162
04/07/17 09:58 PM
04/07/17 09:58 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Midland
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Green, how much sulfur do you need to flush out poisons? How much specifically needed for arsenic from eating a mostly rice diet?
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