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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: Rick H]
#186154
03/09/18 01:20 AM
03/09/18 01:20 AM
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What does <<Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.>> mean to you?
And what about <<Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.>> when you read it in context? IN CONTEXT, the narrative of Rev. 20 actually begins from Rev. 19:11, with the pre-millennial vision running from that point to Rev. 20:6: - Christ comes with the armies of heaven.
- The angel of the sun calls all birds for supper.
- The beast (with the false prophet) and their armies gather together to fight.
- The beast (and the false prophet) are captured and cast into the lake of fire.
- Their armies are killed, not buried but eaten by the birds.
- The angel of the bottomless pit captures the dragon and cast him into the pit.
- The government of the Kingdom is given to Christ and somea risen righteous.
It is obvious that the vision is about the transfer of authority from earthly despots to Christ Himself who, having ascended to heaven, rules from the right hand of God, the Father. Though the authenticity of Mat. 28:18-20 is disputed in scholarship, the idea expressed there is repeated elsewhere a great many times. I quote it here because of its succinct and profound simplicity: << And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, " All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. >> -------------- a Rev. 20:4, " ... Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God ..." /// I think you did a good summary. So what does the following mean to you? <<Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.>> /// What does No. 5 mean to you? ///
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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: Rick H]
#186159
03/09/18 05:44 PM
03/09/18 05:44 PM
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The armies. What are the armies?
Rev 19:18 that ye may eat flesh of kings, and flesh of chiefs of thousands, and flesh of strong men, and flesh of horses, and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all--freemen and servants--both small and great.'
Does that verse exclude anyone?
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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: Rick H]
#186160
03/09/18 07:39 PM
03/09/18 07:39 PM
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///
Those are the losing armies. Just one verse later, it tells you so.
Rev. 19:19, "And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army." Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
⨂ ARMY vs ARMY ⨂
///
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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: James Peterson]
#186174
03/12/18 03:50 PM
03/12/18 03:50 PM
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Yes, there are two armies, one winning and one losing: Those which had NOT worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, vs those which HAD worshipped the beast, or his image, and had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.
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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: Rick H]
#186179
03/12/18 09:19 PM
03/12/18 09:19 PM
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///
True.
Civilians excluded.
⨂ ARMY vs ARMY ⨂
///
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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: kland]
#186181
03/14/18 12:20 AM
03/14/18 12:20 AM
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Civilians? I asked before:
Rev 19:18 that ye may eat flesh of kings, and flesh of chiefs of thousands, and flesh of strong men, and flesh of horses, and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all--freemen and servants--both small and great.'
Does that verse exclude anyone?
I had also asked, what are the armies. You described that they were losing, but did not describe what or who they were. If the writer had wanted to include everyone of the losing side, civilians too, how would he have worded it differently? Besides, what makes you think there "civilians" rather than everyone part of the army?
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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: James Peterson]
#186193
03/15/18 05:25 AM
03/15/18 05:25 AM
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SURE! To discover this for yourself, sit a while in deep meditation, then take out a pencil and paper and draw a map of the earth. - Draw a border around the area of the LAKE OF FIRE. Rev. 19:20
- Draw a border around the area where men lie unburied, where their bodies become food for the birds of the air. Rev. 19:21
- Draw a border around the area of the BOTTOMLESS PIT. Rev. 20:3a
- Finally, draw a border around the area in fulfillment of the following: "so that [the Serpent] should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished ... And I saw thrones, and they (i.e. of the nations) sat on them, and judgment was committed to them." Rev. 20:3b-4a
NB: "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Rev. 20:4bNotice who were raised to reign with Christ: the beheaded. But the rest of the dead remain in their graves until after the millennium. ///
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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: James Peterson]
#186194
03/16/18 05:34 AM
03/16/18 05:34 AM
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To discover this for yourself, sit a while in deep meditation, then take out a pencil and paper and draw a map of the earth. - Draw a border around the area of the LAKE OF FIRE. Rev. 19:20
That would take in the whole earth. Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Draw a border around the area where men lie unburied, where their bodies become food for the birds of the air. Rev. 19:21 Again that would include the whole earth. Why aren't they buried? Could it be because there is no one left to bury them? Jer. 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
Rev. 19:21 And the rest were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This isn't a literal sword -- the sword of his MOUTH. "With the breath of His lips shall he slay the wicked" (Isa. 11:4).
2 Thes. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Draw a border around the area of the BOTTOMLESS PIT. Rev. 20:3a And where is the bottomless pit or "the abyss"? the realm of the dead, the realm of evil spirits, --a place without form or void. Again the whole earth -- becomes "the abyss" In that day it returns to a shapeless mass, without form and void in a desolate state just as it was prior to the six day creation -- God's perfect creation of Genesis is completely undone. The chaotic earth is described in Jeremiah 4:23-26, “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form and void [1]; and the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains and indeed they trembled, and all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down at the presence of the Lord, by His fierce anger”. Jeremiah uses the exact same words as Genesis 1:2 when the earth was "without form and void" -- "the abyss". Finally, draw a border around the area in fulfillment of the following: "so that [the Serpent] should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished ... Satan, that old serpent, bound to this planet filled with the dead, and utter ruins, has no one to tempt for a thousand years. And I saw thrones, and they (i.e. of the nations) sat on them, and judgment was committed to them." [b]Rev. 20:3b-4a This would be in glorious place -- not on this desolate earth. And yes, when Christ comes in the clouds of glory, He sends His angels to gather the saved people, and they gather them from all over the world. Matt. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 1 Thess.4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. NB: "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Rev. 20:4bNotice who were raised to reign with Christ: the beheaded.
Yes, those who gave up their lives for Christ's sake will be richly rewarded. But it doesn't say these are the ONLY ones. Revelation 7 shows a crowd beyond numbering before God's throne rejoicing in salvation. But the rest of the dead remain in their graves until after the millennium. Notice as well, a very important distinction Rev. 19 and 20 makes concerning the first and second resurrection. Those raised in the first -- are blessed and will not face the second death, the second death has no power over them. But those raised in the second resurrection after the 1000 years -- will face the second death.
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Re: Do the Wicked emcompass the New Jerusalem?
[Re: kland]
#186197
03/16/18 01:45 PM
03/16/18 01:45 PM
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James, where did you quote that from? Yourself? I'm not sure how what you wrote about drawing borders dealt with the issue. Again, I asked before:
Rev 19:18 that ye may eat flesh of kings, and flesh of chiefs of thousands, and flesh of strong men, and flesh of horses, and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all--freemen and servants--both small and great.'
Does that verse exclude anyone?
If the writer had wanted to include everyone of the losing side, civilians too, how would he have worded it differently?
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