It sounds like you just said, we should either reject both the trinity doctrine and the replacement of the 7th day Sabbath with Sunday or accept them both.

Once again you have (unsurprisingly) demonstrated a typically Adventist inability to grasp the salient points of the argument.

But there is a direct command to keep the seventh day which God blessed and sanctified at Creation. (Gen. 2:1-3, Ex. 20)
I noticed you completely side-stepped that issue when Kland questioned you on that point.

If you think that command does not apply to Gentiles -- that would imply a belief that the ten commandments as a whole do not apply to Gentiles.

How one views God's ten commandments does have a huge bearing on the issue. Revelation 14 ties worshipping God BECAUSE he is the creator, with "here is the patience of the saints who keep GOD'S COMMANDMENTs and have the faith of Jesus.

Does faith in Jesus, somehow free one from keeping God's commandments? Revelation links the two together. Romans 6 points out that we belong to the one whom we obey.
Faith in God includes obedience, because faith trusts that God is our leader and guide and we FOLLOW HIM because we trust Him. Following and living in Him means we walk in obedience with Him.

You keep pounding on the thought --that we must know the reason they keep Sunday --
Sunday keepers don't build on one common REASON why they believe Sunday replaced the 7th day Sabbath, as if with one mind they think one thought. They have their reasons, each their own. Some believe Christ and the apostles "changed" the day, though there is no indication that they did so in scripture. Some think any day is just fine, it doesn't matter which day that is. Others attend church on Sunday merely for social reasons, other's because it's what they've been taught is the right thing to do, some think historical writings prove Sunday was always kept by Gentile Christians, (a very selective view on history by the way) and still others have developed highly theological and pious sounding reasons, generally built on the resurrection and "new life" in Christ concepts, while others base the change on a rather gnostic concept of God.

Gnosticism makes a distinction between the God of the Old Testament and Christ -- One supposedly a God of law, the other a God of grace. (That's not part of the belief of the One unified Godhead) Yet, the dispensational doctrines have their origins in those gnostic concepts calling the OT the dispensation of law, and the NT the dispensation of grace. According to that line of thinking, Jews had to keep the law, while Christians no longer have to keep the law since they are "under grace" and to prove they are "under grace" they disregard the Biblical Sabbath -- as a sign that they are disregarding God's law.
But grace does not do away with God's law. Resting in Christ, is demonstrated in the Sabbath when we cease from all our OWN works, and rest in Him. While Sunday keeping is looking to our OWN works and ideas and rejecting Christ's rest. Grace offers forgiveness, and empowers one to live for Christ and walk with Him in the paths of righteousness. (not lawlessness which is sin) Resting in Christ is not choosing our own ideas of "rest" in the place of the special time God blessed and sanctified in which we put aside all our own work and know and acknowledge that it is God that sanctifies us. (Ez. 20:12,20)

Yeah...broke my own rule there...
Rule #57: "Never respond to kland. He has no idea what anyone is talking about."


Well...they don't. Or to anyone else either.

I know you're never going to believe this, but here goes....

The cross was more than mere salvation and atonement for sin.

EVERYTHING CHANGED.

The cross brought an end to the Old Covenant of rules, regulations, ceremonies and ordinances. (Loose paraphrase of Paul in Gal/Eph)
It brought in the New Covenant in Christ's blood. (Luke 22:20)
With the New Covenant came a new commandment. (John 13:34)
End of Commandments.

BEFORE THE CROSS, when the Rich Young Ruler asked Jesus "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus answered in terms of the Law and commandment keeping. "You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, and honor your father and mother.’" (Mark 10:17-21, also in Matthew 19:16-30; Luke 18:18-30) He did NOT say believe in God, or Me, or Abraham, or indeed ANYTHING about belief.

AFTER THE CROSS, when the jailer asked Paul and Silas the exact same question, "They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:25-34) They did not answer in terms of keeping the Law, but in terms of belief in Christ.

When I realized this point, I put my faith and trust in Christ and left Adventism with its system of man-made rules about what day to worship on and what food to eat and what music to listen to and what forms of entertainment are acceptable and what substances to avoid and ad infinitum.

I HAVE NEVER LOOKED BACK. NOTHING WILL SEPARATE ME FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST OR CONVINCE ME TO RETURN TO MY FORMER SLAVERY.

Your right -- I don't believe
your overview of the great change in God's dealing with mankind

First, I don't believe the cross brought in a new plan of salvation.


Secondly, I don't believe that God, realizing He couldn't get humans to obey His law, then totally placed the concepts of "right and wrong" into the subjective realm of the human definition of "love".

God's law should have ingrained the principles of love in people's hearts from all time. {Deut. 11:13.22; Lev. 19:18)
See also Matt. 22:37-39 1 John 5:2-3

Thirdly, I don't believe anyone was EVER saved by law, not in the NT or the OT, everyone who is saved is saved by grace. The law has NEVER saved anyone. The function of the law is to point out sin and their need for a Savior. (Romans 3:20)

Fourthly, people in the OT were lost because of their unbelief. (Hebrews 3:18-19) The only difference was prior to the cross the belief was in a coming Redeemer Messiah, after the cross it is belief in the Redeemer, Messiah that DID come.

The whole Jewish economy was pointing to Christ. Isaiah beautifully pointed this out to them. But most didn't believe. Instead they (not God) turned it into an end in itself, that is why Paul writes the end point of it all is Christ, it is not an end in itself.

And lastly --
the ten commandments still point out sin. See Romans 7:7
And those who truly believe in Christ do not continue their sinful ways.

And I don't believe you.

No one answered Biblically the OP question "Was the first day of the week of Sunday ever made a day of worship?". Even Rich H never answered it but just reverted in quoting all he could to validate a 7th day worship. He failed to quote any of the Biblical laws that supports the first day of the week.

The Bible offer grounds of observing as a "holy convocation" day BOTH the 1st day and the 7th day of the week. "And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you."(Ex 12:16)

The 7th day Sabbath law given in the 10 commandments in Exodus 20 was only a summary of the whole law. There were more to come but the Israelites weren't able to hear more...so they begged Moses to tell God to stop speaking to them directly and that Moses would go on the Mountain to hear the rest.

The 7th day weekly Sabbath was the basic model for the other remaining Sabbaths by which gave more information what was the Sabbath rest all about. Since Adventist doesn't study the law and thinks like most other denominations that the OT law is abolish -- nailed to the cross; they are unaware of God's reason why the 7th day Sabbath and the 1st day(== 8th day) Sabbaths laws are given.

Actually there's more laws about the 1st day of the week than the 7th. Both are important and points to different function in the plan of salvation.

A quick overview why the 7th day Sabbath is given :

1. Ex 20:9-11 -- God created the world in 6th day and rested on the 7th : This is the one we, Adventist, focus all our arguments on. But the weekly 7 day cycle only lay down the basic model for all other Sabbath laws which is always based on a 7 day or year, or 7x7 day or year cycle.

The reason given, is He "hallowed" the Sabbath (or time cycle) meaning to set us apart so to sanctify us. This is the basic purpose of the 7 day cycle -- it is a sanctification time process.

2. Deut 5:15 -- "to remember you were a slave in Egypt and that God brought you out with a mightily hand; therefore God commanded you to keep the Sabbath" [My paraphrase]. Here God gives a second reason that is actually the same as the first.

First, we need to remember that we were slaves "in Egypt". We were not all slaves in Egypt physically; but spiritually Egypt represents any form of slavery -- mainly slavery to sin which was all our starting point. God bringing us OUT of the slavery of sin takes a lot of time. Some more than others. That is many 7 days time cycle by which are set aside to sanctify us.

Passover was the time God brought Israel out of Egypt which symbolizes the time of our spiritual conception when Christ's righteousness is imputed unto us. The imputation of Christ's righteousness did not make us righteous right away in the physical dimension. We know clearly that the Israelites were still full of blemishes when they were pulled out of Egypt. However Christ righteousness imputed to us was declared in the heavenly court. So this declaration is a legal matter and not a physical matter right away.

So Passover which is the justification process, is not sufficient to entirely pull us out of sin[Egypt]. There's two other process that is part of God's plan. It also takes Pentecost which is a leavened offering (Lev 23:17) that represents the sanctification process to bring us, who are still full of leavened (sin), in obedience to Christ laws. And also the Tabernacle glorification process to fully write Christ laws into our heart so that our body Temple can reflects the glory of God.

So the first reason in Ex 20 and second reason in Deut 5 both points to the Sabbath law that represent a 7 days-years or a 7x7 day,year, time cycle processes that God put aside in sanctifying us by writing His laws into our heart(Jer 31:33) so to make us His people -- a Holy Priesthood(Deut 29).


A quick overview of the Laws about the 1st(or 8th) day of the week :

1. Circumcision : 7 days to stay with mom, and the 8th day to be circumcised and presented to God.
-Gen 17:12(God gives 8th day law of circumcision to Abraham);
-Ex 22:29,30(General law :" The first-born of your sons you shall give to Me. 30...It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.");
-Luk 2:21 (Jesus circumcised & presented to temple on 8th day). Also to make an important note, on that day two persons saw Jesus and recognized He was the promised Messiah.

The first born represents a first-fruit type of a law. I won't expand the law on the first fruits; but at the 3 Feasts harvest represented the offering of different first fruits harvest: (1. Passover = Barley == the 144k, the overcomers; 2. Pentecost = Wheat == the Church; 3. Tabernacle = Grape == the world). These 3 harvests points to 3 different groups of people that God's prepares (sanctifies) at different times.

2. Consecration of Priests : 7 days to stay in Temple and be purified (Ex 29; Lev 8:33)...and "Now it came about on the eighth day" (1st day of week) to come out before the people to offer sacrifices for them ...."for today the LORD SHALL appear to you". Lev 9:1-4

The main purpose of the week purification process of the priesthood is to get them fit to offer an acceptable "unblemish" sacrifices for the people that God requires so His glory can be manifested to them when God "consume" the sacrifice with "fire" as it was in the OT type-time of Moses.

This reason is given as we continue reading in Lev 9:6 & 7 :

6 And Moses said, "This is the thing which the LORD has commanded you to do, that the glory of the LORD may appear to you. 7 Moses then said to Aaron, "Come near to the altar and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, that you may make atonement for yourself and for the people; then make the offering for the people, that you may make atonement for them, just as the LORD has commanded."

The glory of God will only appear when the priesthood can offer a "sin offering and burnt offering" [not literally, but spiritually] that is fully acceptable to God. This is why Malachi 3:1-4 says that He will come as a refiner's fire to purify the "sons of Levi." This in the NT covenant mindset applies to the Melchisedec priesthood who I believe are the 144k -- the overcomers, who will offer to God on the 8th day [of Tabernacle] an acceptable offering to God for the people.

Take note that Jesus, the Hi-Priest of the Melchizedek order, resurrected on the 8th day (1st day of the week) also following this Priesthood pattern that we will follow also.


3. Pentecost : 7 x 7 weeks cycle + 1st day = 50th day. Is also based on the 8 days (7 days + 1) circumcision law model. Pentecost was fulfilled on the first day of the Week when the Fire of the Holy Spirit(glory of God) was manifested on 120 believers. They went out of the upper room to show this glory to the people fulfilling the Priesthood ordination pattern law mentioned above.


4. Tabernacle Feast : 1st day and the 8th day to be a Holy convocation & Sabbath day. Here the 1st day and the 8th day both represents the 1st day of the week -- no 7th day. The Tabernacle Feast also follow the "presentation of the first born" to the Lord law which is also a priesthood ordination type that takes place for 7 days in form of a wedding feast, and on the 8th day(1st day) a manifestation of the glory of God is manifested to the people. This is yet to be fulfilled.


5. Jubilee : 7 x 7 Weeks-year cycle + 1st day-year = 50. Is also patterned on the 8 days circumcision law model. At the end of the Jubilee (on the 50th year) all debts are cancelled and everyone goes back to their original inheritance.


Summary of the 5 laws :

These 5 laws that follows the 8th day circumcision pattern -- all points to the same fundamental law of 7 days(or 7x7 days or years) purifying cycle + on the 8th day(1st day) a presenting to the Lord and manifestation of God's glory to the people.

Both 7th day and 8th day(1st day) laws represents different appointed time and functions. The 7th day Sabbath law represents the purifying-sanctification process & cycles time; whereas the 8th(1st) day law represents the time of the presentation to God and the manifestation of God's glory to the people.

None of those 8th day "reasons" support Sunday as the Sabbath.

Circumcision is on the eighth day AFTER BIRTH when a babies blood clotting substances reach full strength -- during the first days of a newborn’s life, the amount of blood clotting material is limited, so that even a small cut is liable to cause serious danger for a newborn. So let a full week go by before circumcising a newborn. If a baby is born on a Tuesday, then Tuesday is their first day, and the next Tuesday is their 8th day of life.

Priests consecration.
You assume it began on a Sabbath? Yet that is pure assumption. Yet even if it did and they stay in the temple for a full week, it does not make their "coming out" a new Sabbath -- it would again be Saturday.

There are several other week long "cleansing" ceremonies, the seven day cleansing can begin on any day. They undergo this ritual immediately after contamination. If a priest is "contaminated" he can't serve till he undergoes a week long cleansing. It may begin on a Monday, (day one) and end the next Monday (day eight)

Feast of Tabernacles
took place from the 15th to the 22nd of Tishri, it lasted a full week, but it was not tied to the weekly cycle --

There's NOTHING here to make Sunday the "new day of worship"

any more than those who point to John 20:20

Following His resurrection on Sunday, Jesus had appeared to the disciples in the upper room, AFTER SUNSET. (By Jewish reckoning this was already Monday)
Eight days later they were again in the upper room and Jesus again appears to them.
Ah look... says the Sunday defender, Jesus appears to them every Sunday. No -- according to other supposed "proofs" eight days later doesn't count the beginning day as #1 and is considered a full week plus one day, following that formula, Jesus second appearance would be after sundown on a Monday (or the first hours of Tuesday) but here they say, Jesus appeared to them on the first day, and eight days later is again Sunday. (Though more likely it was Monday )


Eight days from SABBATH does not take us to Sunday, it takes us to the next Saturday Sabbath.

If the first day of the feast began on Saturday --
Day 1 is Sabbath, Day 2 Sunday, 3. Monday, 4 Tuesday, 5 Wednesday, 6 Thursday, 7 Friday, 8 Saturday.
The next Saturday is the eighth day, it's not Sunday.

To make the "eighth" day of a feast Sunday, one has to begin the first day of the feast on a Sunday.
Day one 1. Sunday, Day 2, Monday 3 Tues, 4 Wednesday, 5 Thursday, 6 Friday 7. Saturday, 8 Sunday.

The reasoning that the 8th day after Sabbath is an additional day to the week, is like claiming one has 11 toes by giving each toe a number --
Proof, 1,2,3,4,5, toes plus 10,9,8,7,6, toes 5+6 = 11 toes.



Illusions--

Is there a possibility that you had a wrong concept of God's commands?

Do you disbelieve this point --



Was the Sabbath only an outward set of rules and regulation in your mind, by which to earn justification?

Was God ever pleased with mere outward or grudging compliance, while the heart and mind were devoted to something else, or does He offer us the Holy Spirit to impress His character upon our lives and change us from the inside out, so that we love to give honor and obedience to the God who redeemed us, and we delight in the law of God because IT IS GOOD!


By the way, some things did end at the cross -- the whole sacrificial rituals and ceremonies that were to teach them about the "LAMB OF GOD", but that whole system was turned into in "mere forms and rituals" while their meaning and significance was largely lost.

But God's moral law remains and continues to point out sin.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The truth of the cross has made it easier and more meaningful to live a life in compliance with God's laws which become living attributes of a loving and good character in those who are "alive in Christ".

That is indeed a possibility, and this fact lies at the root of all theological or doctrinal discussions.


We disagree.
None of the 4 or 5 points in your rebuttal (post #186849) even remotely approach my position. But then, I have never had the strong impression that you have any desire to understand my position.